Erik Bergman founder of Catena Media, a company that went for 0-400 employees in 7 years. During that journey he worked with great teams and amazing leaders – today we will look into the top 13 tips he learned about leadership on the way.

[00:00:00] What can you do to improve your leadership today? Our hope is that when you have listen to this episode, you will have a clearer understanding of what a leader is and what you can do to become one.

[00:00:15] Now I’m here with Erik Bergman, the founder of Catena Media, a company that went from 0 employees to 400 employees in just seven years, and during that time, I’m guessing because I wasn’t there. He worked with some pretty amazing teams, leaders. And I’m here to pick his brain today. See what kind of insights did he pick up along the way?

[00:00:38] Erik, buddy, how you doing?

[00:00:40] I’m very, very well. And I’m here today with my friend e-mail who to me is a mix of Albus Dumbledore and Adam Sandler. You know them, the guy in Big Daddy, the movie. That’s probably the most hilarious and funny guy I know. He’s like this bag of wisdom and knowledge all put up in this kind of playful kind of way. And he’s the podcast host here. And I just love doing this. How are you today?

[00:01:09] Thank you, buddy. I feel like round the letter and read it.

[00:01:14] You know, my dad started to be able to grow a beard when he was 35. I guess so. Any day now when I get the wizard beard, I’ll be ready. Now, if you’re new to this podcast, this is becoming great, a podcast that helps entrepreneurs make this world a better place.

[00:01:32] And let’s begin, Erik. So who would you say this episode is for? Who could say that they are a leader.

[00:01:42] Let me start by asking you that, too. Who would you say is a leader?

[00:01:50] Two years ago, I went to a leadership seminar. And before that. I was there. I’m not. Can I qualify myself as a leader? I’m not sure. And the seminar was held by this power woman. This really bad US yoga teacher. ALEXANDRA She’s playing like having hip hop music theory classes. She’s really cool. And her. She said that everyone is a leader. Every person, because you’re always leading something, you’re leading the people around, you maybe believe leave it leading in your household, maybe just leading yourself and what’s happening inside of your head and in your body. And that one really sticks with me because that means that I’m a leader in every situation in my life.

[00:02:34] Yeah. People agree we actually get goose bumps just hearing that. I love that definition. Yes, I think that I agree with her completely. I think everyone is a leader and everyone would benefit from learning leadership skills. And then obviously there are people who are leads more people and ah, I don’t know, bigger leaders, quote unquote, or whatever you want to call it. But we’re all in situations where we are being role models and leading others.

[00:03:05] I totally agree. We should have a certificate then great that can send your leader print and sign print. Print the sign. Yes, it’s yours. You got it right. OK. Are you ready to get into this? I’m excited. I’m super ready. OK. So the first point of a leader is to be a role model. What do you mean by this, huh?

[00:03:28] Some.

[00:03:29] I don’t have kids, but I’ve heard that if you have kids, they they don’t do what you say, they do what you do.

[00:03:36] And I think there is a lot of truth to that that people don’t really listen to. Words were absorbing behaviors. So if you want to be a good leader, it’s not about what you say. It’s just being about embodying everything that you believe matters and making sure that you live by it. Before you ask someone else to live by it. So if you want people to be it’s something I did back in in Catina that I’m not really proud of today. But still, yes, as an example was that I worked long hours. I was there early and I left late. And the reason for that was to a large extent, I wanted people to see me in early. I want to see me leave late because I wanted people to work hard.

[00:04:17] Today, I wouldn’t do it like that. I would do the opposite. I would not come in early. I would not stay late because I don’t think that’s the right thing to do. I think that it’s much better to say, OK, guys, I had a relationship crisis yesterday. I think we should cancel this morning’s meeting because my energy is not there, which is a similar thing. I’m not justs. I’m doing what I believe is the right thing to do. And I think that’s that’s what it means to me. And being a role model rather than just saying what matters.

[00:04:48] So the same the value you have have changed since then, but still the principle still applies. Do what you want other peoples to do.

[00:04:58] Yeah. Exactly. Is it? Limit myself, not just say it in not having double standards in that none.

[00:05:06] So what do you think happens if a company is not doing that?

[00:05:10] Maybe have these sort of three words we live by. But then the maybe the management doesn’t really live those values.

[00:05:19] So I think that.

[00:05:22] A team does whatever the leaders are doing.

[00:05:26] And if.

[00:05:29] Let’s say flying, for example, let’s say the CEO. He flies economy, then no one in the company will fly business class because they’re not gonna step above the the leader and what he’s doing. But if the CEO of a company flies a private jet, then the management team will fly business class and then the other people will fly economy plus or whatever, because it’s kind of okay to take one step below. But if the leader flies private jets and then he says everyone else needs to fly economy, that’s just gonna be a big issue because it’s like, yeah, he doesn’t even do what he tells us to do. So I think that’s just one way of seeing where it will easily translate into how the team and the company general behavior is that if the if the boss says fly economy, he flies economy, everyone else will.

[00:06:24] I think a really good example of this that I thought of just now is that. You are working for great for free. You’re not taken out on a salary, salaries, you will never make any profits from this company. And you want to create a culture where we don’t work to get higher and higher and higher salary. But instead, we want to be as useful as possible for this company and get compensated in a way that covers our needs. So I think that’s a very good example of the leader doing what he wants, the values of the organization to be.

[00:07:00] Thank you. I really believe the same thing.

[00:07:02] I’m very happy to say that I do.

[00:07:05] So let’s move on. Yeah. Number two, which is do the dirty work first.

[00:07:11] Yes.

[00:07:11] So what I mean with this one is it’s easy to think of a leader as someone who is sitting on the throne and having his peasants building a pirate or whatever. And I think that’s just a shitty way of looking at at leadership. I would much rather do it the other way around. OK, let’s start by going out here and understand how do I build a pyramid, be around the people who knows how to build a pyramid, learn how to build a pyramid and kind of understand everything that it takes to do that. Because once you know it, you know who to recruit to do it. You know who can. How it should be done. You can actually create a strategy out of it, not just from saying I want the pyramid, but actually understanding. Yeah, you need to shop the rocks in this certain way. You need to fit them together. This is how much you can actually work in a day because it’s really hard to go in there, get an understanding of all the kind of dirty, simple tasks and having a mentality of there is nothing I’m too good to do. I think that’s a common thing when I’ve met leaders in the past with bosses. It’s like, yeah, but that’s kind of beneath me. But if you’ve been scrubbing the toilets in the office, which I have, there is like nothing you. You’re too good to do in a sense. And I think it helps so much to understand everything that needs to be done. And it creates a humility in how to do things.

[00:08:36] So a pharaoh then would be a much better leader to when he understand what his people are going through when they’re building a pyramid. Exactly. That makes sense. But isn’t there a risk that you will kind of fall into the trap of micromanaging, getting incredibly busy doing all these little minor tasks? And then there’s not enough space for you as a leader to think of the vision, strategy, things that you also need space to do, creativity.

[00:09:02] Yeah, I think that’s a big challenge with us. And I feel it myself right now. Is it something that I’m doing right now is I’m learning social media, I’m learning Instagram, and I’m doing a lot of things that. Are very simple to outsource and have someone else designing a picture is putting a quote on something and playing around and in different visual tools that I know nothing about, it just takes shitloads of time and there is a risk of being stuck in that and not getting past that state. So sometimes I need to step back and just have a look at this. Okay. Erik, now you’ve been doing this for this and that long. Can you actually have someone helping you up with this? Because it’s important not to get stuck in those things. And it’s also important once you have someone who starts doing it for you not to get too involved with how they’re doing it, because they’re never gonna do it the way you want them to do. They’re never going to do the same where you do it, but they’re hopefully doing it better than you would do it. It’s just a different perspective.

[00:10:01] That makes a lot of sense. So let’s move on to point number three, which I think applies even more to.

[00:10:10] The rest of your life as well, not just work life, just like the first one. Be a role model. So this one is show appreciation. This sounds quite obvious. So why do you want to bring it up here? Do you see people make mistakes and the way to show appreciation?

[00:10:26] I definitely see that. I haven’t shown appreciation enough when I’ve been a leader and this is something that I’m really practicing, I want to be very good at picking up when someone is doing something good. I want to be good at picking up that you should choose a good example of me being a role model, and that made me feel really good. I want to tell you that and show you that appreciation instead of just sailing along with it.

[00:10:53] So whenever there is an opportunity and look for opportunities to say, wow, I mean, you did a really good job here and you made me feel appreciated. And yeah, you did. You explained this very well. So constantly look for places when other people do good things and tell them. And if possible, tell them in front of other people, because that just makes it so much more real. I’m sure that you can relate to the feeling of someone says something good to you. And it’s very easy to just not take it in. I say, yeah, but you did a better job or. Yeah. But this. But if I say something bad about you, it sticks to you like I run to a magnet. It’s like it’s really hard to get rid of it. But once something positive is being said in front of other people, it becomes a lot easier to take it in. It sticks with you in another way and it sticks with the people around you. So it’s so much easier to absorb that compliment and take the value from that appreciation.

[00:12:00] Praise publicly, I think probably going on.

[00:12:05] I think it’s something you did just now that I think is an important part of appreciation is not only saying thank you, but showing that a person how their actions affect you. And I think you did it without knowing it in the introduction because. Now, when I said that everyone is a leader, you liked what I said. You could have said, well, well, well said from a more mental place. But I said it’s a vote that gave me shivers. And I could see on you that you let my words affect you. And that is a very beautiful way to show appreciation. I think you showed me.

[00:12:41] Thank you for showing me appreciation for my appreciation to you about as appreciation or or whatever the word would be.

[00:12:50] All right. Show more appreciation and do it publicly now number four is give credit. Sounds a little bit similar.

[00:12:59] Give away the credit away in the credits. So it’s the differences here. Then it varies. It’s tightly related to show appreciation, but it’s also. It’s like, let’s say I’m the leader and you and I have the same idea. It’s common in the past I’ve always taken credit for the idea. This was my idea. I came up with it first, but now I’m continuously looking for opportunities to say this was airman’s idea. So even if I had the same idea, I want you to feel that it was your idea. And the reason for that is simply that. It’s free to give credit. I can know that it was my idea, I can be happy about that, but I can help to lift you up and make you feel better about yourself. Make you feel more engaged in what you’re doing and show that in front of other people as well. And that also ties into actually how hard someone will believe in something or a hard someone will work. So if we have the same idea and I say that’s my idea, then you will be working with my idea. Even if you kind of feel it was your idea as well. But if I give you all the credit, say this was completely Yemens idea. How much harder do you think that you will work on that idea?

[00:14:11] I work a lot harder. It’s the sense that you would put more effort into raising your own baby in a nurturing way than someone else’s baby. Every time I sit someone else’s baby, I don’t care. But you care more about your own ideas, right? You would be more engaged. You would take more responsibility, more ownership, be more creative. Make sure that it happens.

[00:14:31] Exactly. So if I just give the value of the idea to you or to anyone else, it’s much more likely that they will work harder for it and believe more in it and get other people more engaged about it than if it was my idea.

[00:14:48] So isn’t this could it this be kinda, because it seems on the surface like you’re doing a nice thing. But could it become almost like a mental thing to do? Give me your credit or your work harder than something.

[00:15:01] Yeah, I would say it. I mean, in a sense, it’s it’s manipulative. And I think if something is manipulated, not probably goes back to the intention. So if I have a good intention with it, I want you to feel good. I want you to be more engaged in what you’re doing. I wanted to be passionate. It adds into my agenda. But I think the difference between being influencing someone in a positive way and manipulation is, yes, the the intention behind it. So if I’m just wanting you to work harder because my benefits, then I’m manipulating you. But if I want you to work harder for your benefit and I benefit from it as well, I want you to feel better. I want you to be more engaged. I want you to enjoy what you’re doing. Then I’d say that it’s influence, but it’s it’s a fine line between manipulation and influencing someone.

[00:15:52] Yeah. And I think this goes into many areas of life. Let’s say I want to get you to I want you to have self-awareness about something in your life. If I can ask your questions. So you come to the realization yourself that it’s going to feel like that it comes from the inside of you. It’s gonna feel true. It’s gonna feel like something you want to work with. But if I just tell you this, you should change. Then you’re just going to have your shield up. You’re not really gonna wanna do anything with that information.

[00:16:21] Yeah, I can see that. So basically, instead of telling me something, you’re asking me a question where I can find that answer myself. Exactly. And then it becomes more real to me because I got the answer myself.

[00:16:35] I think so. And that’s also new. And I think of giving someone else the credit. You let someone come up to the conclusions on their own.

[00:16:42] That’s true. It’s a nuance to that. Definitely.

[00:16:45] All right. So let’s move on to number five, which is care about what’s right, not who is right.

[00:16:53] And I can see this as being a common mistakes that I’ve done in the past as well. It’s like I can stick to my idea, even if I don’t even feel it’s right anymore because of ego reasons. I. I’m not gonna say that I was wrong. So even if I believe that your idea is better, I’m gonna go out and get everyone working on my idea simply because it was my idea.

[00:17:15] That’s a side effect of not giving credit as well.

[00:17:18] Yeah, it’s like I’m on. I want to keep the credit for myself and then it becomes caring that I’m right rather than what’s the best thing to do.

[00:17:26] And what’s driving force in you would you say is leading to the behavior of wanting to be right, of wanting to stick to your idea.

[00:17:37] So it looks like a self-conscious, narcissistic thing. Feel that I need to prove myself. So I need to take the credit. What’s going on? I’m caring more about how I look in the moment than I care about the mission of the project. I’m more cautious about what people will feel about me, and it’s more important that I shine than that other people shine. So I can really see I’ve done this a lot over my career where it’s been more important to me to make sure that I’m right or that it looks like I’m right that than actually what is right.

[00:18:16] So if someone here stop and say, you know what, I actually do that sometimes. What would you say? It’s a way that they can change their perception. Like for me personally. Sometimes I do that because I. I want to feel competent, for example. That makes me feel capable. So it’s almost like some kind of emotion looking to fulfill.

[00:18:41] Yeah. So I think the key is self-awareness starting to actually reflect on what am I doing in my life. Whenever a situation happens that triggers choose a lot of emotions, regardless if it’s good or bad. I tried to kind of its top for a couple of seconds, see what just happened here and how could I behaved in this situation differently and change that and see, OK, now what I’m doing right now is actually I’m taking credit for something and this is not really fair to e-mail or whoever I’m doing this for.

[00:19:17] So the key for me has been to frequently stop and reflect in the moment what’s going on right now and be aware and.

[00:19:28] Over time, I see patterns in myself. OK. When these kind of situations happen, I usually do this and that’s not the behavior I want. And the more I see this happening, the more I get aware of it. And at some point I get aware of it before it actually happens and I can change it. But if I’m not reflecting on it, if I’m not thinking about it all, I’m never going to be aware of it. I’m just going to keep that negative behavior.

[00:19:53] Right.

[00:19:53] So reflexion is a very important part to become a leader because status, how you improve and learn, not in your life, what would you say is. The amount of reflection that you need so forever active hour of doing things. How many minutes of reflection doing it?

[00:20:11] Wow, that’s a tough question. I don’t think that much is needed, to be honest. I do this very. I’m very unaware that I’m doing this because it’s an habitual thing that I’ve practiced continuously doing. So if I’m not self reflecting in general, then I would set aside 10 minutes in the evening or something to just go over my day and see what situations have happened. So I actually put in a time slot to start doing this. And if you’re putting a time slot on 10 minutes, I’m pretty sure that you will start doing it during the day quite quickly as well. So one thing that I’ve done is that I have a time slot each evening where I write down three things that I appreciate with with each day. And that has led me to being more aware of when I appreciate something during the day and thinking, hey, I will write this down tonight and I get an extra feeling of appreciation for it.

[00:21:12] I think if you if you live a life where you feel like I don’t really have time to reflect and thing, think things through to schedule some time, plan for it. See, maybe I could skip listening to a podcast unless it’s to become a great podcast on your way to work sometime and get some reflection to get it into your day or week schedule somehow.

[00:21:36] Yeah, I think that’s great advice is to get some silence into your day and if you have a pen and paper in front of you, that’s perfect. If don’t. If you don’t, that’s perfect too. Yes. God, running, walking, drive home from work. Whatever you do in silence. For me at least silence creates reflection regardless if I want it or not.

[00:21:57] Yeah. So find some time to get bored. Or if you’re bored, don’t necessarily look at your smartphone every single time.

[00:22:06] All right. So let’s move on. Which is number six. Ask the man.

[00:22:12] I’m gonna see if I can speed this up a bit. Otherwise, you’re gonna have a really long episode. Say, I ask, don’t demand is basically whenever someone says go do this. Our immediate reaction is, no, we don’t want to or we feel opposed to that. At least that’s how I work. When everyone someone tells me, go do this. I don’t want to. But instead of someone saying, oh, can you please do this or would you like to do this? And giving a wiggle room in there is actually an opportunity to say no. It’s much more easy to say yes. It feels much more pleasant to say as if you have a choice here. And it’s a very simple thing of showing that you are equal in a way. If I’m saying, can you please help me with this, then we are equal. If I’m saying go do this, then I’m above you.

[00:23:03] But let’s say that you you’re my boss and you pay my salary. You have a kind of a power position and then you say, could you please do this? And maybe I feel like I still have to do it.

[00:23:19] Yeah, yeah, you will. It’s likely that you feel that you still have to do it. And this then come down to how do I interact with you if you don’t do it? So if I’m gonna say you say no and I was. Yeah, you better fucking do it now. Then next time I say can you please do this? You feel like this in order any way and you will have the same reaction. But if you say no and I say, oh, that’s interesting. Can you elaborate? Why do you have a lot of other things on your plate? And I’m actually okay with your no. Then it’s a question. And the next time I’m asking you questions, you will feel that it’s a question.

[00:23:57] So you could say that the difference between asking and demanding is what are the repercussions gonna be if I choose not to do what you ask for?

[00:24:07] Exactly. So what’s the consequence? And if I can over time, if I’m okay with you saying no, the time to say no and I listen to buy and then then all my questions are gonna be questions. And if I’m never okay with it, then none of my questions is gonna be a question. It’s just a covered up demand.

[00:24:26] Covered up the moms that’s worth refection reflecting upon if you’re listening. If you are, are you asking? Are you telling? And what are the consequences if someone is not doing what you’re asking for?

[00:24:38] All right. Let’s move on. Number seven, which is listen, make everyone felt heard.

[00:24:45] Yeah. This is something I’ve sucked as its leader and it’s kind of really bad. It is so. Basically listen as much as possible and get an understanding of everyone else’s opinion that it’s very likely. For example, if you are the first one speaking and you’re saying your idea. It’s quite impossible for me to give you credit even if you had the same idea, because I’ve already told you my idea. But if I listen first and you come up with the same idea that I already have, then it’s much easier for me to give you credit. And it’s much easier for you to feel that you have a say in this. That what you want matters. So if as leader, just staying back and letting everyone else speak.

[00:25:31] Get a good understanding of what their ideas are, what they want. It changes pretty much everything. And it’s so much easier to lead from knowing the other people and what their needs are than it is from just trying to have this big megaphone and scream out your own opinions and not really being aware of the team once.

[00:25:52] I can easily see you falling into that trap because you are a guy that is good at talking and you like to talk in in a really good way. And there are some people that are a bit more reflective. It’s not that I don’t like to talk. It’s just that they take a little bit more time before they speak. Now, if I don’t do that, I dug a lot. So when we we’re at the, uh, we did a week together with a great team a couple of months back. And Joakim. He did an exercise where everybody broke down on pieces of paper suggestions for new things that we could do with great. And I think getting all of those ideas out in the open before the person Erik likes to speak the most starts to talk. Right. Yeah, I think those people still get to express themselves.

[00:26:40] Yeah. So we get to hear all the good ideas, everyone get to express their ideas. And even if people have shitty ideas, at least they feel listened to and valued.

[00:26:49] When did they realize Erik doesn’t have the best ideas all the time?

[00:26:53] Of course you have the best ideas. What do you say? I still haven’t realized that.

[00:26:58] All right. Let’s move on to number eight, which is leaders talk last. And this seems connected.

[00:27:05] Yeah. So this is very close to the previous one. And I’ve heard this from Simon Saanich the first time this leadership guru, I love him. Basically, it says that the most common thing when you’re entering a meeting of your leader, you say this is the problem. This on me is my idea for a solution. What do you think? And then you’ve already given the right answer or the answer that you want. So you kind of narrow the mind of everyone else in the team to focus on how can we do the leaders solution, which A, doesn’t give anyone else credit. B, doesn’t listen to anyone else and c makes sure that you never gonna hear all the other ideas that might be better than your own. So it’s a shitty idea. So if you instead say this is the problem, what do you think? And then make sure that everyone gets to talk. Because in a room it’s quite common that two people talking to people are quiet or whatever anyway. So as a leader, if you’re just directing question to like, Oh, Spirit, what do you think about this? If he hasn’t said anything in making sure that everyone gets involved, then you get the you get all the good ideas. Everyone will talk. Everyone will be listened to. And as a leader, you could either conclude what has been going on or you can even let someone else conclude. And you, just by your question, direct where you want the conversation to go and you can kind of highlight what ideas you think are good and then you can give away the credit for it. And if no one comes up with your idea and you still believe that charity is the best one, you still have the chance to tell it. And explain why you think that this is the solution. Need to go for.

[00:28:40] This sounds very. It sounds very much reasonable and good leadership skill to me, and at the same time, it’s not that Hollywood powerful, glamorous image should get off a leader that comes meeting, slams open a door he gives like it’s a really cool speech and everyone is just slow clapping him while he moves.

[00:29:05] Are you seeing Ari Gold in Entourage in front of you?

[00:29:08] Exactly right. So so it’s not your style then? It’s not so glamorous.

[00:29:15] My style is definitely not glamorous in terms of leadership. And I’m really not aiming to be glamorous. I’m aiming to make everyone feel glamorous themselves. That’s my goal.

[00:29:28] Well, all right.

[00:29:32] Let’s move on to number nine, which is I understand what other want, what others want and find ways to give it to you.

[00:29:40] So once again, this ties into listening. If if I know what you want and you’re never going to want exactly the same thing as I do, then I can communicate with you in a way of saying, OK, Emil, if you do these kind of things, you’ll get what you want. And hopefully it will benefit my cause. So if I want you to become I want us to build a big podcast.

[00:30:05] And I know that you I’ve spoken to you. I know that you want to be better at public speaking. You might not be interested at all. And having a podcast to start with, if I’m you saying, hey, I mean, let’s do a podcast. Let’s do this. You might not be so excited about it. You might go along because I’m the boss. But you might not really care about it. But if instead I’ve been talking to you a lot and I understand it yet EMI is really passionate about public speaking and he wants to learn and stand up. Comedy is like. And wouldn’t a great place to learn public speaking and then kind of be to do a podcast together. Yeah. That’s a great idea. Some kind of communicating with you. From what I know that you want. And that will benefit what it is that I want. And once again, fine line between influence and manipulation here, but it’s just much more likely that you will be excited about the things that we want to do.

[00:30:53] If I can communicate with you from a perspective of what you want and not necessarily what I want, and a different time between manipulation and leadership would be what is your intent behind it? Are you looking for situations where both of us will be winners? Yeah, for sure.

[00:31:11] And I’m looking for both of us to be doing it because I want you to be a better public speaker. I want you to learn more about stand up if that’s what you want to do and learn more about you more. And I want you to learn it in the format of a podcast, which is everyone’s a winner in that. So I want to be able to if I know what you want, I can come up with ways of giving you what you want. And hopefully I can come up with ways of giving you what you want. At the same time, as I get what I want, instead of focusing too much on what I want and then trying to get you to give me what I want.

[00:31:42] So looking for win wins, you’re always looking for win wins and understanding the win wins.

[00:31:46] Yeah. So you need to ask questions and talk less so you understand what people want.

[00:31:51] Exactly. I need to listen. Why? Why would anyone want to do this? Why would he want to?

[00:31:58] Right. So let’s move on to point number 10, which is a big one. As so many of his points, we could do whole episodes about for sure. If you want to Stewart that whole episode about one of these points, please let us know. Send us an e-mail to podcast at great dot com with a suggestion that any who number 10, be honest.

[00:32:18] I think this is a big one and a tough one. And I didn’t do this as a leader in the past either. And what I mean with this one is just always be honest. Say what you feel, say what it is, say what’s going on in the short run. It might harm you. People might leave. People might steal your secrets, whatever it might be. But in the long run, I believe that people will trust you and feel safe around you and feel like, yeah. But Erik says it as it is. If we have a problem, he will tell me he’s not going to hide that. If I’m not performing, he will tell me. I don’t need to worry about not performing. If whatever is going on, it will be there. But if I’m not being honest, if I’m tricking away with things, there will never be a safe way of working with it because you will never know if there is actually a big problem down the line that the team doesn’t know about that I’m trying to quote unquote protect everyone from. By keeping it on myself. So if I’m just being honest with what’s going on, I mean, honestly, what I’m feeling. I believe that I will feel so much more supported. You will be able to help me if I need help. But if I’m not being honest, you will not. And. You will feel safe in a team like that. Where is honesty? I don’t believe in this big shot. Ari Gold, kind of manager in Entourage for you don’t know. Ari Gold is a bad asset manager in a TV show called Entourage. And he’s screaming loudly. He’s wearing fancy suits and he’s about as kind of guy.

[00:33:50] But either way, he says, isn’t that some kind of honesty? And that kind of becomes what’s the difference between honesty and projecting your. Unresolved internal emotions and using other people as target practice.

[00:34:07] Well, I can say that Ari Gold has some kinds of honesty when he’s screaming and he’s angry and he’s gonna to show that for sure. At the same time, I can’t see him being honest with with pain, for example. I can’t see him actually telling why someone if there is a big problem, I don’t see that character sitting down and saying, hey, I need help right now. I don’t see him doing that. So there’s definitely elements of honesty in that kind of leadership as well. But I would like to see honesty in every part of leadership.

[00:34:41] That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense.

[00:34:46] So you could say that.

[00:34:48] You need to combine honesty then with also being vulnerable.

[00:34:54] Yeah, I’d say that honesty and vulnerability are very closely linked together. It’s it’s impossible to be vulnerable if you’re not being honest.

[00:35:05] Oh, she makes a lot of sense.

[00:35:09] So let’s move on to point number eleven, which is somewhat connected. I would say which is show emotions.

[00:35:17] Yeah. So. Once again, going back to myself, I’ve had I wouldn’t say that I had a military approach to leadership, but I’ve definitely not shown pain or even shown suffering, and I haven’t always shown joy either, because I might want people to feel that they could work even harder. I don’t want them to know how happy I am with something because I want meager results. And I think that if you’re showing emotions. It’s because, once again, it’s a lot easier to trust someone who shows emotions, if you know that I’m angry from my behavior, then you can actually feel safe knowing that I’m angry in a sense. But if I’m smiling, but you’re looking at my eyes and you say you think I says I want to kill you, then you’re getting a lot of mixed emotions. You’re not really sure how to behave around me. So you’re not gonna feel safe if I’m not showing any emotions. And this goes over time that if I’m if I’m crying when I’m sad, if I’m laughing when I’m happy, if I’m screaming when I’m angry will be very easy for anyone around me to say, OK, this is where Erik is right now. This is a good way to behave around him. But if I’m having a stone face, regardless of the situation, I’m not showing sadness, I’m not showing happiness, I’m not showing anger or anything else. It will be really hard to know if you can trust my words. It will be very hard to know how to behave around me since come on in leadership that you should have a stone face, you just take it on and go ahead. And I’ve done it. I just don’t believe it’s it’s worth it. So I think showing emotions makes it easier to feel safe and trusting someone.

[00:36:56] And it all boils down to building trust with people around you.

[00:37:00] Everything in leadership goes about trust. I would say it’s impossible to lead someone on trust. You might be able to get them to do what you want by forcing them, but you can never lead someone. No one will go voluntarily after someone they don’t have any trust in.

[00:37:15] Have you learned this skill and implemented it in your private life as well?

[00:37:22] Because, yeah, this this would be a point where leadership in your family would be crucial to do these things.

[00:37:29] Yeah, I mean, as you said in the beginning, everyone is a leader. Leadership is everything. So I don’t really separate the two. So whatever way I’m behaving within the business, I want to behave in real life. Then, of course, it can be even harder to be completely honest with friends and family that are really close to you because there are so much at stake. So I’m far from perfect in this, but I’m trying. I want to be as honest as I can. I want to show the emotions as they are. I want to I want to listen. I want to give credit. I want to do all of these things in my relationships as well.

[00:38:03] And sometimes it’s even harder than it is in business. But I’m trying.

[00:38:09] Getting a little bit better each day, I think that’s all we can ask for. Teeny tiny steps. Teeny tiny steps.

[00:38:17] All right.

[00:38:18] Point. We’re approaching the end of this list now. Number twelve, say thank you and sorry. I’m sorry. And help me.

[00:38:27] Yeah. So these are three words or phrases that kind of tie together the honesty and showing emotions and less ego as well. If you’re saying thank you. You’re basically saying you did something valuable. You were giving credits. If you say I’m sorry. You’re kind of saying I did something wrong here. You were right. It’s similar kind of thing. And if you say help me, you’re showing vulnerability. You’re showing that you need help and you’re asking for it. And you can actually rise with it. So it’s three face phrases that all kind of symbolizes the other things we’re being open over. That cute giving up a Chaucer’s x.x is just simple ways of applying this that every time you say thank you, you’re doing one of these tips from before. Every time you say I’m sorry, you’re doing one of these things and every time you help me, it’s the same.

[00:39:20] And I think. My experience is that this seems kind of obvious, but when someone is not doing it.

[00:39:29] And that happens to me so often someone is not paying attention saying thank you or it really lowers my willingness to help them out again and do them another favor goes quickly.

[00:39:42] Yeah, it’s fascinating how attuned we are to that as people. And, you know, he didn’t even say thank you. It matters. Matters a lot.

[00:39:52] Yeah. And the way you do it, how much you mean it and the emotion she’s showing you do it. Yeah. All right. Last point, number 13, which is a point that I love personally. I never stop learning.

[00:40:04] Yeah, I think this is crucial. And if you would have asked Erik, 26 years old, if he was a good leader, he would say, fuck, yeah, I’m awesome. I’m more or less fully learned. I don’t need to take any classes. And if you ask Erik thirty one years old, he’s a good leader, he’d say, I have a lot to learn. Practice. And I think this is key. And there are so many good sources to learn from. So when I was twenty five, I never started studied people. I never really studied anything. I just did things. And the last couple of years I’ve had I’ve listened to podcasts and looked a lot on YouTube.

[00:40:42] On Crisman Command is a great YouTube channel to learn people’s. I will link to that below. And How to make Friends and Influence People is a great book by Dale Carnegie that has taught me so much. And I’m applying and I’m seeing so many things shifting in my life. Just thanks to that. And Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg is another book that is so crucial. But how does human interacts with each other? How can you become a great leader and what can you do? And I feel that. I’m I’m getting learning so much still and I’m learning every day, so there’s so much more to be learned.

[00:41:22] And there’s.

[00:41:24] I’m miles ahead of what I was when I was twenty five, and then I still realize how many miles to travel.

[00:41:30] How do you make learning fun? I think that’s such a key.

[00:41:33] Yeah. I love that question. It’s hard.

[00:41:37] Do you know why this is important? Do you remember how Alice Cooper song? But it’s like school’s out for ever. Students did not have fun in school.

[00:41:46] Stockler Right.

[00:41:49] Yes. For me, one challenge has been taking ego out of learning. So for example, I’ve read books and I’ve told myself I have to finish the book. I have to read the full books so I can say that I’ve read the book and that’s just fucking stupidity. But that’s the way I’ve been reading books. And that makes reading for me a torture if I don’t enjoy the book and I’m not really starting another book until I’m done with it. It means that I have to suffer to get to another book. And now I’m only reading books. If I enjoy them, I’d put them away. If I don’t, I’m jumping a lot in between. And it makes learning more, makes reading more fun. Same thing goes for listening to podcasts. Before I used to always listen to the end. Now it pretty much never do unless it’s engaging me. I don’t. And probably the biggest key is to have people around you that loves learning. I mean, there is no one in the world and don’t tell my fiancee this, but that. I enjoy watching you too with more than I get. I love it with you because we pause, we talk about it. We get super excited about this concept. We study it. We come back to us. I guess that’s what they said in this YouTube video. We do podcasts about it.

[00:42:55] So finding learning bodies, that’s Hydes. So crucial.

[00:42:59] She doesn’t love you back either. She really doesn’t. So it’s a good thing she doesn’t even listen to the particles that much.

[00:43:09] Yeah, find the learn about it. What would you say? How would you make learning fun?

[00:43:15] Your last point was my main one, find people that you learned together with. And me personally, I loved you too, because I can learn small pieces every day. Every time I eat. Well, not every time, but when I eat lunch. Watch something on YouTube and I take notes and I watch charismatic people. I think one of the blessings of our times is that we can. Right now, I’m learning photography. And then I can learn from this super bad ass guy. Peter McKinnon on YouTube. That is ridiculously charismatic. I can learn from the best teachers, whatever topic I learn about. So make sure to use that.

[00:43:48] So how do you find inspiring people and how do you find people to learn with due to you?

[00:43:53] But you can’t learn. You can’t find people to hang out. You mean you mean in person? Yeah.

[00:44:03] That’s a great question.

[00:44:05] Seems like a question worth a whole episode. One place where I found two of the people that I feel like I learned the most from is Spirit.

[00:44:15] And my buddy Frederick, that I lived together, Widner and I met both of them in a speaker club in Stockholm. So it’s a club where people come together to practice public speaking and everyone there is there because they want to improve and learn more than that. They are afraid of rejection, public embarrassment. Now, that in itself says that these are cool people. These are people you can learn with. So if you don’t know someone in your social circle, go to a place where you might end up finding braved risk taking people. They want to learn what’s this club called? It’s called Toastmasters. And I think there’s a club in most cities in the world. I’d say that is a great place to start an improv class. So whatever you want to learn, go to where those people are. They want to get better, find some of that is committed and say, hey.

[00:45:06] Help them save it. Like, which point was it?

[00:45:10] How can you find funny people or not?

[00:45:12] I don’t know when there’s a number nine on the stand, but others want to find ways to give it to them. So when you’re with this, people find out what do they want to do in life and then help them get that.

[00:45:22] Yeah. And that way you can learn from them. Yeah, exactly. And I think what you’re touching upon here is Keyzer, what’s finding people who have interests and are passionately doing them. So anyone who goes to speaking club or an improv class or whatever it is they’re doing with their spare time, actively seeking up classes is going to be someone who wants to learn. Otherwise they wouldn’t be there. Yeah. So and one thing I’d like to add to that, where I met a lot of interesting people is through the different clubs in school. So I went to the university for three weeks and then I quit because I started because I wanted to get to know fun people. And I started reading on 50 percent when no one who reads in school on just half time is interesting or fun, or at least they’re not there to meet people. They’re there because they want to do something for the character. And instead, I started joining the different clubs at school, so I joined the economic club. I didn’t go to any classes, but it was part of the economy, class, economy, club in school. And there were so much people in there that would really engaged in learning about economy, really engaged in going to competitions, and they really wanted to learn. So I believe that those were the most curious and passionate and driven people in school. And that’s why they joined the club to do even more things. And I just hang out with those guys and they were so inspiring to just be around. So if you’re going to school, if you’re enjoying your university or if you’re in a big company, you’re in whatever different commitees there are, because the people in those different organizations wants to do more than they have to.

[00:46:59] You should life as a team sport. So is social leadership.

[00:47:06] Yeah, leadership, L-It’s. I love what you said there in the beginning, leadership. Everyone is a leader and everyone benefits from learning leadership skills. And I. I guarantee that anyone who applies what is going on in this episode will see positive impacts in their lives and all the relationships.

[00:47:24] And often is it all a lot of the relationship.

[00:47:27] I agree. So I think that’s a great point to start wrapping this up. Is there something else you want to say?

[00:47:34] Yeah, I think we can wrap this up. I’ll just go wrap it up. So we’re doing this podcast because we want to create a community of people who wants to make the world a better place through entrepreneurship. So we’re doing leadership episodes like this. We’re gonna talk about charity or how we can impact the world. And we are practicing right now to get better at asking for help. We want people to help us to create this. And honestly, whenever I ask for help, I still feel a bit awkward. I feel pushy and needy. But for fucking comfort zone here and doing it anyway. So please, if you know anyone who would be interested in this episode if you know. Yeah. Think about one person. Who do you know that is the most passionate learner? And send them this episode and see if they want to be a part of this community that we’re creating. We would feel very valuable. We will feel appreciated and we will be very inspired to do more episodes like this.

[00:48:39] All right, so Erik, I appreciate podcasting with you. Makes me feel excited. I feel like jumping around right now. I have a lot more energy than when we began. So thank you for doing this with me.

[00:48:52] Thank you for doing this with me. I had a lot of fun.

[00:48:54] I did, too. Syria might share. Yo.