The Institution of Environmental Sciences Interview

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Every day you and I get bombarded with negative news. And just like our bodies, become what we eat, our minds become the information that we consume. If you want to stay positive, it’s so important that you also listen to stories that inspire you and uplift you. In this podcast we interview leading experts dedicated to solving the world’s most pressing problems. And if you stick around, I promise you will not only be as informed as if you watched the news, you will be uplifted, inspired, and have more positive energy in your life. Welcome to Great.com Talks With.

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Hi and welcome to the great dotcom talks with Adam Dunn, who is the CEO of the IEEE dot org, which is the institution of environmental sciences. And if you haven’t heard of them before, this is a charitable organization that wants to raise public awareness of the environmental sciences. And if you knew here and if you haven’t done so before, you definitely want to press subscribe on YouTube or in your podcast app, because that can really help us get these kinds of conversations out to more people and raise awareness for important causes like environmental sciences.

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Adam, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with greater calm today. Pleasure to be here.

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So how would you describe ISIS to someone that is not familiar with your organization?

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As an organization, we’re not specifically focused on one problem, like a lot of your guests have been in the past, where a professional body, a membership organization that sees our role as building societies capacity to deal with a whole set of interlinking problems. When you think about most of the grand challenges, big challenges that face society today, that either environmental in nature or in origin, climate change, biodiversity loss, hunger, extreme weather, even the current pandemic we’re experiencing could be framed as an environmental problem. And you look at encroachment on wild habitats, making zoonotic transmission. But we’re a disease leap’s one species to another, far more likely. To deal with all of these sets of crises, we need a strong, knowledgeable and ethical science profession that provides the understanding and capacity to deal with the issues. So let me give you a practical example of that. A government might decide that it wants to deal with the number of deaths caused by poor air quality. It can’t just click its fingers and it’s done. It needs to determine the source of that air pollution. Does it come from transport, wood burning industry or construction? It needs to understand the atmospheric chemistry that is taking place, how pollutants combining and degrading forming new pollutants may or may not be damaging to human health, then it needs to be able to understand the interventions it can make to try and improve the situation.

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All these things take environmental scientists who are researching, monitoring, modelling and tracking compliance. Professionals who work in sections like sectors like ours may not get as much of the spotlight as campaigners, but they really are the unsung heroes of the transition to a more sustainable and happier society. So what we do as an organization is to support both the discipline of environmental science and the people who work in the field, our tagline is standing up for science scientists in the natural world. We represent professionals from fields as diverse as air quality, land contamination, marine science and education. Wherever you find environments work underpinned by science, our members try to follow our passion for the environment and apologetic about promoting science to lead to behavior change. Our role as an organization is to equip our members not just with the technical understanding of the science, but with an understanding of how that science operates and context, the practical skills they need to promote a transition to a sustainable society.

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Hmm, that’s a real important role that you guys are feeling, because you can totally see the interconnectedness of it all and I haven’t heard anyone else describe how so many problems come from is environmental in one way or another. So I really like the way you pinpointed that. So help me understand then.

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What are the problems that scientists are facing, is it that they don’t get funded, is it that they can’t find answers? Is it that even if they do find the answers, governments are not willing to implement the knowledge that you guys are finding? What challenges are you facing?

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That’s a huge question. So, yes, there’s always problems on the research side of things such as a lack of funding sometimes or a lack of prioritization of funding. But in many areas of environmental science, the scientific argument itself is almost over. So when you look at something like climate change, you know, there’s a very strong evidence base, a indisputable evidence base of climate change and its impacts and its causes. You know, despite what you might read in the media, that still sometimes pretends that there’s a debate to be had. The scientific question is already answered. You know, the basic science and what the next stage about that is. How do you move from that kind of problem, identification into that solution space where you start talking about, OK, you know, we know this is an issue, but what do we do about it? And so much of environmental science these days has shifted from that problem identification into, you know, options, appraisal about looking about if we make this intervention versus this intervention, what gets the better outcome? And I think that that makes for a much more exciting field now.

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Right, so before scientists were researching, is climate change happening now there, more researching, what can we do about climate change? And the more data politicians have to make decisions on, the more cost effective they can perceive the solutions.

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Yeah, yeah, I think that’s that’s a good, good summary. Are they able to challenge the cost effectiveness so because that’s not always necessarily the driver behind some of these issues. So, yes, you know, a sustainable economy does come into it, but a lot of it might be around having a healthier population. It might be looking at the well-being of individuals. It might be looking at a whole set of metrics that go beyond finance.

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Right. So when you say raise awareness, what do you refer to then?

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Public engagement is always an interesting issue for scientists, and it’s often done quite badly, it’s often done in a way in which science is projected as being the single source of expertise and the recipient, you know, the general public are there just to learn from the scientists. And that model of interactions between the population and science is an outdated one and an ineffective one. And what we try and do as an organization is to move into a space where. What we see as our role as an organization is to facilitate discussion within society and environmental science produces a set of evidence, and that evidence can be there to underpin a discussion that takes place. But just because the evidence points in a particular direction doesn’t necessarily mean that society should straightaway jump in that direction because things may not be politically palatable. They may not be economically viable at that particular point. So you might look at some of the challenges of climate change and go, okay, tomorrow we need to ban fossil fuels. And the science might suggest that that’s that’s the course of action to take. But it’s not a practical set of practical action in the short term for most societies. So I think there’s an element of science taking a slightly more humble role where it says, OK, we have a set of evidence here that we can bring into this debate and we will be active proponents of that evidence. We won’t let it be kind of crushed down in the debate. We’re there to elevate, elevate the importance of that science. But we recognize that isn’t the only narrative within society that there are other factors to consider.

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That makes a lot of sense.

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So how far I see you guys as a pure science and then it goes into politics, and where is your role in this? Or you kind of the bridge in between or you’re empowering science or, you know, what is the role of the is?

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Yeah. So we certainly do a fair amount of policy outreach work.

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So a lot of that is kind of synthesizing the best available evidence into a digestible format for politicians. But it’s also starting to then try and answer some of the questions about how that science might be translated into policy. So having kind of frameworks or approaches that turn into practical policy tools.

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Well, OK, OK.

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And what other things are you doing to empower environmental scientists? Are you involved in getting people encouraged to take up that kind of academic work? And how would that work?

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Yeah, so as our aims of the organization, one of them is to inspire and inform and a strand of that work is to inspire people to begin their journey into learning more about environmental science. So that could be anyone who is working in another profession and wants to learn a little bit more about it. Or we go right down to trying to inspire a kind of primary school pupils to start on that journey of engaging with nature. And we look at the kind of pathways through the whole of education so that people try to either have environmental science embedded within other subjects. So that kind of way of organizing education around looking at problems is one approach. You know, getting students out of the classroom and into nature is another approach or getting them to take pure environmental science subjects to this environment as high as a level in this country. There’s a natural history GCSE on the way. And there’s a plethora of university courses in environmental science and related courses.

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So some understanding from the outside looking in or listening to this into you. What do you think they are unaware of when it comes to environmental science that you would like and acknowledge you would like to share?

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Yeah, it’s an interesting discipline, environmental science, because the debate is really raised since the late 1960s when environmental science really emerged as an academic subject about whether it’s a discipline in its own right or whether it’s the application of other disciplines to a single issue, the environment. So is it just the application of

physics, chemistry and biology to environmental problems, or is it something in itself? And I think it’s kind of a dynamic discipline in that it keeps it like a magpie discipline. It steals things from everywhere, all over the academic landscape. And whilst it used to be focused on those kind of core sciences, physics, biology and chemistry, increasingly it pulls in other disciplines like engineering and social science because so much of the evidence has to lead towards kind of behavioural change within individuals. So you need to understand the way in which individuals think that and how you influence their behaviors. And so it starts to pull in lots of different disciplines.

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So it really makes this kind of multidisciplinary discipline in itself. But I think the one kind of takeaway that I would want your listeners to take about what environmental science is and how it’s different is its fundamental way of looking at the world, I think is quite different to a lot of other disciplines and professions, because at the heart of it is something called systems thinking, where we see the world as a series of kind of complex and interlinking systems. And they may be natural cycles such as the nitrogen cycle or the water cycle or human systems such as patterns of consumption.

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So.

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You couldn’t put a frame around some of these systems you could look at like the energy system or the food system, and you can disaggregate that system, pull it apart, examining closer detail, a particular facet of a problem. But you should never forget that you’re looking at something that is part of a much wider system and that any framing that you put on it gives you a partial insight and that type of system of thinking leads to a couple of revelations. I think the interconnectedness between systems that most processes in nature are circular, not linear, but most businesses operate in a linear fashion and it doesn’t mimic nature in any way that we as individuals, in any sector, if we are to tackle some of these problems, we can’t work in individual silos. We have to work in a multidisciplinary or interdisciplinary way. And the relationships within society and between things are really, really important. And I think once you kind of dig into that systems thinking and begins to appreciate the way in which environmental scientists view the world, that cascades down all sorts of lessons for anyone in society, whether you’re a CEO or a company CEO of a company or you’re an engineer within a factory, it really helps you broaden your own thinking about your own work and the way in which something that you think. You’re bound to have any impacts within a very small area, it doesn’t actually have a kind of knock on impacts, be that to the local economy, be that to the emissions that you create, then have a kind of global impact or contribute towards global impact. And it’s really a very interesting way of looking at the world.

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What I imagine in front of me when I hear you describe the system thinking is. Most decisions I see leaders or companies do that make me scared are decisions that are not taking into account the interconnectivity of all of these systems that those kinds of decisions become a win lose situation, some very short term. So to spread that idea, I think it is so important. So what is your kind of vision for how environmental science will progress in the future? What would you like to happen?

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So I think.

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I would like to see. Environmental science.

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At the boardroom level, elevated to the same kind of level that you would see evidence from your finance department or your legal department, so you can imagine when a board is making a decision that it’s relying on a number of different evidence based. And you’ll be familiar, you know, companies that you work with that finances is something you get regular papers on. You know, you’re seeing your quarterly targets and projections. You’re working up an annual budget. And I’d like to see environmental science elevated to a similar level where you start to look at how your company operates and how different decisions will result in the depletion or the adding to natural capital. And maybe I should explain for people what natural capital is so natural capital is taking a similar kind of accounting approach to nature and trying to put an economic value onto things that exist within nature. So we have things called ecosystem services, which are all the kind of free services that nature provides for us. They might be things like nutrient cycling, soil formation, cleaner fuel protection against flooding, protection against disease, cultural services that might arise from your kind of appreciation of nature. So when you go out, does it make you a lot happier? Do you enjoy the view, Joy? Listening to the sound, the sounds of birds songs, whilst incredibly complicated calculation, we can start to formulate some value around that.

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And so when you as a government or a company, make a set of decisions that either deplete those natural capital or add to it, you should be taking account of that within your own business.

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Yes, I would love to see more of the holistic kind of thinking, and maybe even if governments got on board with that idea and they somehow supported companies that did make decisions in that way and taxed companies that didn’t. I wish we could explore this much more. But at the same time, we’re coming up towards the end of this interview. So if someone feels excited to learn more about environmental science, I would like to somehow be involved with your organization, maybe even support your organization.

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What can they do?

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So if they are a professional who is an environmental scientist, who is studying environmental science, I would urge them to join the organization. And that’s our primary focus of our membership. And our wider mission is about influencing society towards a more sustainable and transforming society to want to to a more sustainable state. And so that we just order. I would ask if you learn a bit more about environmental science. May we have an open access philosophy at the organization said most of our resources are available free. You can read our journal for free. It’s open access and you can subscribe to our YouTube channel and see the variety of different webinars and lectures that we put on. Some of them are very technical, but some of them are aimed very much for the average layman to be able to access as well. So do you just have an explorer around our website?

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Beautiful. And what is the address for your website?

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I mean, it’s the hyphen or Dash is the org beautiful.

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Adam Dornan, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with greater dotcom today. Thanks very much. It’s been a lot of fun.

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It has been. And for you listening, if you also had fun, if you enjoyed us, if you would like for more people to learn about environmental science, please subscribe on YouTube or your podcast channel that will help us get through the algorithms so more people can hear conversations like this. We would highly appreciate it and we’ll see you in the next episode.

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