American Whitewater Interview

[00:00:00]

Every day you and I get bombarded with negative news. And just like our bodies, become what we eat, our minds become the information that we consume. If you want to stay positive, it’s so important that you also listen to stories that inspire you and uplift you. In this podcast we interview leading experts dedicated to solving the world’s most pressing problems. And if you stick around, I promise you will not only be as informed as if you watched the news, you will be uplifted, inspired, and have more positive energy in your life. Welcome to Great.com Talks With.

[00:00:44]

Hi and welcome. Today great.com talks with Thomas O’Keefe, who is the Northwest stewardship director for American Whitewater.org, and if you haven’t heard of them before, they are a national nonprofit in the US who is focused on river conservation. And in my talk today with Thomas, I’m sure we will touch upon anything from hydropower to how you can enjoy rivers more to what it means for rivers and the climate with the recent administration changes that have happened in the US and when Joe Biden and his team is entering. And if you haven’t done so before, you definitely want to press subscribe on YouTube or on your podcast app, because today we are looking at Rivers’ Thomas. Welcome to Great.com Talks with.

[00:01:40]

Thank you. Thank you for having me today.

[00:01:42]

We appreciate you taking the time to speak with us. And if you would, describe American Whitewater to someone that might not be so familiar with the challenges with the rivers in the US and what you do, how would you describe yourself?

[00:01:58]

Yeah, so American Whitewater’s a national nonprofit here in the United States, formed in 1954, we’re a river conservation organization representing the white water paddling community and whitewater enthusiasts. But everyone who enjoys rivers, we welcome them into the fold and we use science and policy to advance issues of river conservation. And we also work really hard to encourage people to go out and enjoy rivers. Our mission is to protect and restore America’s water rivers and to enhance opportunities to enjoy them safely. So we want to protect these resources, have people enjoy them and make sure they’re being safe when they’re out there. So that’s what we do.

[00:02:50]

All right. And there were a couple of things in there. You work with science, you work with politics. You work with encouraging people to go out and experience and their engagement for the rivers becomes higher. So where is kind of where you see you have the most leverage as an organization? What work do you really think is crucial to focus on?

[00:03:13]

Yeah, so we do a number of things in the in the conservation space, we work a lot on preserving rivers and restoring rivers.

[00:03:26]

We’ve been involved in some dam removal efforts, but we also work to conserve free flowing rivers and we use various laws and policies here in the United States. We have the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act that we can use to designate special rivers that have unique and outstanding values. So we use legislation to do some of our conservation work. We also want people to get out and enjoy rivers. So we work a lot on river access and ensuring that people have the ability to access rivers. And sometimes that’s acquiring land for access, working with public land managers to improve access to a river. Also, we publish information on rivers for how people can get to them and enjoy them. We have a database of over 6000 rivers in the United States that can be used for whitewater recreation and provide information on how to get to them. And then with safety, you know, we publish a safety code for people to enjoy Whitewater Rivers. People may have heard of the class one through five rating scale for Whitewater difficulty. And that’s something that we publish and maintain. There’s lots of other elements to the safety code besides just the rating system, but making sure that people are safe when they’re out there is also important to our mission as well.

[00:05:02]

Got it. So with all of your different approaches in mind, let’s paint a little bit of a picture, what is there for someone like me that is from Sweden that is not so familiar with the US? What are the challenges that the rivers are facing in the U.S.?

[00:05:23]

Yeah, so I think let’s see a few different challenges.

[00:05:30]

There are still places that have been targeted for additional hydropower development and there’s always some tension with increased, you know, hydropower development. In places where we do have hydropower development, there’s always pressure to roll back some of the environmental safeguards that we do have. And that’s been a theme in my work over the past four years under the current administration that we have here is, say, a rollback of some of the environmental safeguards that we do have.

[00:06:13]

So we do have some very strong environmental standards in this country. But there’s always, always a tension among those who want to relax or repeal those environmental standards that we have. So that’s a particular challenge. There are some places where mining is an issue in the headwaters and clearly all of those all around the world use the products of mining. And I think, you know, we look at the rare earth metals that are in our phones or our cars or other technology products that we use. You know, we all use those things, but thinking about where we can do it in a way that minimizes impact. And there’s some areas that are very sensitive headwaters to rivers with exceptional water quality that have been targeted for mining. So that’s an issue that we’ve faced. The other challenge that we’re facing right now is an incredible demand for outdoor recreation.

[00:07:31]

One of the things that I see in my own community is you can’t go to a football match or you go out to dinner, brunch with your your parents right now or lots of other activities, you know, going out shopping or things like that that you might do due to the global pandemic that we’re in right now. And the one thing you can do and you know what I’ve done over the last three days here myself is you can go out and you can recreate outdoors. So there’s been, you know, over the last year just incredible demand for outdoor recreation experiences. That’s probably not sustainable at the current infrastructure and management resources that our agencies have here. So that’s been something that’s been a real challenge is just making sure that the outdoor recreation that is happening is sustainable and done so in a manner that, you know, appropriately protects the resource, you know. And the other thing that I’m seeing in my work, you know, here, I think over the last few years, there’s been a general awakening to the importance of native communities and their connection to rivers and the landscape. And so here in the region that I work in, we have a lot of Native American tribes that are present and active in the places where we recreate and recognize many of those tribes. We actually have treaties and they have treaty rights associated with those that, you know, are something to consider. And how we think about the future of rivers and river conservation and public use of rivers.

[00:09:31]

It’s certainly a more complex topic than initially meets the eyes. And I was talking earlier today with a Norwegian organization called Searoad and. Oh, and if you haven’t heard, I don’t yet. Go check it out after this one. She taught me that 90 percent of the energy in Norway is coming from hydropower, which my initial reaction to that is fantastic renewable energy, and I didn’t think so much of the consequences these hydro plants have to reverse. So from your point of view from the American Whiteford Atwater organization, how do you feel about the dams and hydropower?

[00:10:13]

Yeah, so that’s that’s a great question.

[00:10:15]

And I live in the region of the country where I live here in the United States. It differs across regions in the country here. But we get over 70 percent, more than two thirds of our energy from hydropower, hydropower here. So I’m acutely aware of this issue. And in my own household here, I think it’s actually above 90 percent of the energy here in Seattle from hydropower. So it’s something that I think about a lot. So hydropower has some unique attributes that make it an important source of energy, but it has devastating impacts on river systems.

[00:11:00]

And so I think as we move forward to trying to have a clean energy economy, we need to be mindful of the fact that in addressing the very real issues of climate change and carbon emissions, we do so in a manner that recognizes hydropower has huge impacts on aquatic ecosystems. So I think, you know, it’s an important source of energy.

[00:11:34]

It will continue to be for the foreseeable future here. But one of the things we’re trying to do is look at with renewed conversation here about transitioning to a clean energy economy, we need to take an honest look at the existing hydropower fleet. So that’s one of the things we’re really promoting here, you know, over the next year is to take a look at the existing hydropower in this country, in this region, and look at those projects that have high environmental impact, high social justice impacts relative to the energy they produce.

[00:12:19]

And we think what we’ll find is there are some projects that can be, you know, continue to provide an important energy source. Hydropower has some unique attributes as a in its ability to provide what are called ancillary service benefits to balance wind and solar and other renewable energy resources.

[00:12:43]

So do you mean that you can use it when the sun is not shining? And. That’s right.

[00:12:47]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you can do it when you think about it in the context of a portfolio of renewable energy, you know, it does have an important role. But where are those projects that, you know, can provide that benefit and then where are there other projects that simply don’t provide that benefit or have just such a high environmental impact that they need to be removed? And I think, you know, when I look at this region and the regional power planning, the regional power plan that we have here, if you look at the least cost alternative, it’s not building more, but investing more in conservation and efficiency. So, you know, we’ve done a lot. A lot of countries around the world have done a lot in that area, but we can do more. And so there are opportunities to transition away from some of the carbon producing electricity to operate our existing hydropower fleet more efficiently and better remove some of the projects that have the highest environmental impacts and social justice impacts and then invest more more in efficiency and.

[00:14:14]

Improvements in plants and conservation, right, and now we are starting to speak in about the investment and where money is going, and that kind of leads us into politics because there has recently been a change in administration in the US. And you said before this call that you had been in contact with the Joe Biden team. So I’m really wondering, what is it going to mean for the rivers of the U.S. that this change in administration is happening?

[00:14:48]

Yeah, well, I’ll be frank, you know, as an organization, we work with both sides of the aisle here with Republicans and Democrats and have a very good track record of working across the political spectrum.

[00:15:06]

That being said, the administration that we’ve had here over the last four years, the Trump administration, has been incredibly inaccessible to individuals like myself that care about these issues and has not been receptive to issues and concerns that we have brought forward. So I am pleased and that is not been you know, not all Republican administrations have been that way, but this one has been particularly inaccessible to organizations like ours. So I’m heartened to see that, you know, over just the last week or two here that, you know, individuals like myself have been able to interface with President elect Biden’s transition team, talk about some of the issues that are important to us as it relates to public lands and public lands management, river management, and also these issues of clean energy that we’ve been talking about. And I think we will see here in the first few months a renewed commitment to addressing climate change, smarter policies around clean energy, recognizing that we need to make a transition to a new energy future. All of this requires collaboratively working together with a lot of different interests. I don’t think it’ll be easy, but for my part, I appreciate that there’ll be a forum to have a meaningful discussion about where hydropower fits and where does not fit. And that’s something that I’m looking forward to in the coming months. Here is a new opportunity.

[00:17:14]

Hmm. That is indeed an interesting conversation. And I like how you put it that you want to explore and. Yeah, ask these questions so we can learn more together. I would love for four more of that to happen now that we’re coming towards the end of this interview. And imagine that someone is listening to this and they feel,

OK, I want to be involved somehow, either to help reverse or maybe to help your organization to help reverse what is something someone can do that is maybe from the U.S. or even from Europe.

[00:17:54]

Yeah, so I think, you know, one of the things that we do is we focus we’re very strategic in our outreach to elected

officials. And so if, you know, people want to check out the the news on our on our website, join our our monthly Beda news where an American white water dog and we always have opportunities to weigh in on policy issues that affect rivers and specifically those that affect people’s enjoyment and ability to use rivers here in the United States. When it comes to rivers around the world, we publish a lot of resources on our website and we actually have people from all over the world contact us for information. For instance, we have some resources for how to scientifically and quantitatively evaluate stream flow needs for recreation. And so people from all over the world use that information. And we’re happy to share it and happy to provide those who may be engaged in whitewater recreation or just other use and enjoyment of rivers and how they can be better advocates for the resource. And although laws and policies may differ around the world, the resources and the passion for protecting rivers is something that people universally share. So we’re happy to share information.

[00:19:33]

Beautiful. Thomas O’Keefe, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with great.com today. Yeah, thank you, thank you and for your listening, if you enjoyed this conversation, if you think preservation of rivers and the climate as a whole is important, please press subscribe right now on YouTube or on your podcast app that would greatly help us to reach to the algorithms and reach more people with these kind of conversations. I thank you very much for listening. And we see you in the next episode.

END OF TRANSCRIPT