#4 – Gambling addiction – Are we responsible?

Transcript

[00:00:00] Is my net effect positive or negative in the world? Everything that I’ve done, I’ve created tons of jobs. I’ve created, I’ve donated lots of money, I’ve done a lot of good things. And at the same time. I believe I’ve done a lot more harm than good. To this day, I believe I’ve been a big part of something much worse than I’ve been a part of something good.

[00:00:28] All right. Hey, Eric. All right, thanks, bye.

[00:00:31] Hello, my man. I’m doing well. I’m scared. I’m nervous. I think we’re going into deep waters that have no idea how to control right now. How are you scared?

[00:00:44] Well, honestly, I feel the same. I feel the same way. This is a tricky subject for me. The topic of the day is going to be the graveyard. Spooky. We’re going to talk about ethical, moral dilemmas when it comes to working in the gambling industry and being a gambler, because we come from slightly different backgrounds where I have been. Inside of the gambling industry, I’ve been a participant in the gambling industry as a poker player, and you have been the person arranging the games. You have been creating a affiliate’s affiliation site for gambling. So we have slightly different angles here. And I guess now that the recent you are feeling scared and nervous, Erik and me, the same is because. I haven’t given this topic all that much thought because I suspect that I might be on more or less kind of thin ice here. And I guess you feel the same way. So we want to explore today and learn together. And to be honest, we don’t have any really good answers here. So our intention today is that we want to learn together. We want to see if we can expand our understanding for the moral dilemmas of being in the gambling industry and see if we can.

[00:02:22] Learn together. I’m guessing that, like I said, while you are nervous. Do you have something to add to that that I read? You write?

[00:02:32] Yeah, I think you you mean you read me, right? I think the both of us being in the gambling industry have kind of always looked the other way from whatever problem we might be a part of causing. At least that’s what I’ve been doing.

[00:02:46] Whenever someone has asked me a direct question, how do you feel about this?

[00:02:53] I kind of let it go over my head somewhere thinking like, yeah, but everyone has their own responsibility, even though I’m not sure if that’s true. It’s like, yeah, but they’re grown ups, they’re doing this or that. And not really taking that question in and contemplating it and feeling it. Do I honestly feel this way? Do I honestly believe that everyone who is playing is a grown up that can take responsible choices? Or do I actually believe that I’m fooling people into this and destroying lives, but I just don’t want to look in that place?

[00:03:30] See? Yeah, definitely. A big part of me is is nervous about those things. Another big part of me is nervous about this because I have this craving of being entertaining.

[00:03:43] And I feel that this is gonna be a deep, as you mentioned, graveyard topic. I mean, it’s gonna be a deep kind of dark topic, which is hard to entertain through. And one of my common defense mechanism is always making a joke. And I don’t think that it’s not the perfect setting for that. So there are a lot of reasons for for nervousness here, and I’m not really sure of how they all tie together.

[00:04:10] But I say, you know, in the summer and the water looks really lovely, but, you know, it’s gonna suck to jump in.

[00:04:18] I say, yes, let’s jump in. I was Surui describes site. It’s not that way here in Malta with winter in Malta.

[00:04:31] So I want to go back to what you just said, that everyone is a grown up and they have their own responsibilities. But I want to go back to that a little bit later on, because I want to sort of start in the beginning. So you and I, we got into poker at the same age. And if you’re listening to this and you want to hear about how you’re going to poker and some some stories and fun anecdotes from what it’s like being a 60 year old, getting into card games, then go back and check out our podcast. Number two to maybe. Yeah. When we talk about our history and our poker journey together, that’s a fun one. But for now, when you got into poker, sixty-year-old, did you have any thought of what would be the consequences for the people on the other side? Other people’s participating.

[00:05:26] No, not at all.

[00:05:28] And even if I would have had that, I don’t think I would have been able to take it in and really consider it at that time. I think I saw myself as a kid kind of playing against adults. So even if I managed in a sense to make their lives miserable, I wouldn’t have taken any responsibility for it whatsoever because I was just a kid.

[00:05:51] That’s polaha would have seen it and.

[00:05:55] I believe that maybe the defense mechanism way had been keeping the self image of being a kid in these scenarios, that it’s coming from an playful energy rather than taking on the serious like. Yeah, but Erik, that doesn’t work when you’re 31 years old. You need to to be where the big boy pants now sits in search of St. Peter Pan.

[00:06:19] Yeah, I think so. So I think that’s the make lifestyle changes. Yeah, that’s that’s where I come from, I believe. How did you feel about this when Elysium a few years ahead? Because I think that you’re in a similar position when you’re 16. How did you think about this?

[00:06:34] I want to stay on that 16 topic for just one moment because I remember. Yeah, it’s one thing when you play online. I don’t see the faces of the people that you’re affecting. But I remember right from the beginning when we play, I started playing. We played the home games just for fun. You played for maybe a couple of 10 euros, 20 euros here and there. Maybe the one who lost the most lost 50 years, 100 euros over a pretty long time. And I know which guy I was. I know who the biggest loser in our games was, the guy who couldn’t control his impulses. So I got really angry, tilted and just started losing all of his money in this game. And I did not feel compassion for him at that point. I just thought. I just felt proud from winning. And when I think back to that time, that was the exact same way that I perceived sports. Because when I was a kid and I played sports, the only thing that was drilled into me was you should win this game. And I didn’t. I never thought about what is the experience of my opponents here. If I do a foul that it’s not allowed. Maybe I hurt someone else. That’s part of winning the game. If this is to my advantage, I should take it.

[00:07:56] Did you have. What was your experience is that sports or at home games like that?

[00:08:02] Actually, the complete opposite. Really? Yeah.

[00:08:07] This brings me back to a question I’d like to ask you after answering it myself, but what was my first bad experience with winning? So when when did I feel guilty for winning the first time?

[00:08:22] And I remember playing.

[00:08:25] I was in school. I was probably 17 years old. And we didn’t play for a lot of money. But there was this guy who who kept losing in our group as well. And this time he he lost more than he had done previously. And I could see that he is actually not dealing with as well. And it didn’t deal with it with anger, but with with sadness. And I played a part with him, and I actually made him win the part because I cared more about his feelings than me winning the money in that that very moment.

[00:09:12] So I can imagine that it comes from from the sadness rather than the anger. So if we would have reacted with anger, I would probably have been pissed off and told him to grow up. But if he reacts with sadness, that’s like just a low body posture, cramping down, lowering the toonot tone of his voice giving me.

[00:09:38] I just got this feeling that he was just really sad. Then I just didn’t want to win his money, that I didn’t care enough about winning to be the reason that he felt sad.

[00:09:49] So I’d say that’s.

[00:09:51] That’s my first bad memory of of winning then or the gambling world, in a sense. Did you have your first bad experience with this?

[00:10:13] I’ll see if something drops in. I’m not sure, to be honest.

[00:10:21] I’ll let you know if something drops so I can take another story, which I’ve never told you before, which is somewhat similar to this, and it actually plays out with with you and me in.

[00:10:36] In Africa when we had just come to. The hotel in in Accra was sitting on the terrorists playing Shina poker, and I just kept winning and winning and winning.

[00:10:52] It was before you started really ruining my life for anyone who listens. This ends up with e.m and taking shiploads of my money.

[00:10:59] And I was on a winning streak and it was doubling and doubling and doubling. And I actually folded a hand when it was like 20 times the money or something that looked full because useful.

[00:11:12] But I I did mess it up on purpose because I felt, no, this is just getting too big. It’s not fun anymore. I’ll just let him have his one. So I even had that feeling with you. Who is then a professional poker player and and do that. It was a similar situation to the wait time back in school, but it was 10, 12 years later and from a financially stable guy.

[00:11:39] So I’d say that the actual scenario played out very, very similarly. But even without the sadness, it was more like, yeah, but we’re playing for fun. Fun is the purpose. And if it becomes I don’t know, maybe there was 400 euros in that pocket or something like that when we were playing in each hand like that. Now when we were twenty eight years old, it was way too much for me, for us to just enjoy and focus on the game.

[00:12:06] So yeah, that happened as well.

[00:12:09] So I feel bad. Winning your mama. I’m happy to hear that you didn’t. You took a lot of my money.

[00:12:21] I did not care about winning your money.

[00:12:25] That’s why you stayed a professional poker player. And I got into denial doing marketing.

[00:12:31] Yeah. So.

[00:12:40] I mean, in the beginning of gambling, I my mentality had such a winner winner mentality drilled from sports, drilled from by my dad drilling school. So I when I played, I had a really wanted to win really, really badly. And I also loved the game.

[00:13:01] That’s one of the reasons I started when I was 16. I thought it was on a 1 to 10 scale. I enjoyed the game nine point ninety nine. I couldn’t think of anything else. So I had thoughts like not going to began. But later on, maybe when I was around 20, 21, that especially when you play live and you see the faces of the people losing like. Doesn’t feel good to be a part of the experiences of people who seem to suffer a lot from this.

[00:13:33] But then.

[00:13:35] I couldn’t find any solution there, and I wasn’t willing to stop because I was enjoying it so much and I was being successful. So I sort of just didn’t want to think about it. So my invitation now is to think about it as a poker player. What is the consequences of being a professional poker player?

[00:14:07] So starting them with with this home game long before you, a professional poker player, what what role did you play in in the anger of this 16 year old boy?

[00:14:22] And how did you think that he felt after these these games?

[00:14:35] I can imagine he felt very, very bad. Intense psychological pain that comes from. I mean, I experienced the intense psychological pain of losing in poker. And then when you don’t have perspectives, that works to your advantage. I can imagine that.

[00:14:54] The pain gets multiplied. Second, imagine he had very intense pain from those experiences. That led into addicts. Other addiction behaviors and many other kinds of suffering.

[00:15:09] Do you think he would have played if it wasn’t for the excitement of you and your close friends that were the winning guys? I’m guessing that you guys arranged the games and he was more invited than the other way around.

[00:15:24] Yeah. Exactly.

[00:15:30] So I think I thank you. I’m not sure if you would have played then, but I guess that he would have gotten into gambling somehow, eventually.

[00:15:40] So.

[00:15:43] I’m not sure I’m not sure what that guy’s doing today. I’m not friends with him, but. I’m not sure. What do you think? Do you think he then obviously had a lot of bad experiences with gambling earlier on? Do you think that better to do that would play money than having? Because if it didn’t have that, maybe it would have started gambling when he was twenty, twenty five or something like that. And then play for real money maybe at the casino.

[00:16:10] I think that we can only guess about that. And that doesn’t make that much sense to anyone listening.

[00:16:15] There will be a lot of guests today.

[00:16:18] There will be a lot of guests that I’d like to stay on on these home games, because what’s what’s interesting with them is that compared to online gambling is that here you are somewhat of a host. And if it’s not at your place, if it wasn’t for you, there is less likely there would be a game. If you’re playing a poker stars today with millions of players, your existence as a player or not will not have an effect. Whether or not other people are playing at these home games by just participating, you’re enabling the game. Yeah. So I think that’s an interesting aspect in this of the responsibility of the game happening.

[00:16:57] Yeah. So the so yeah.

[00:16:59] The smaller the player pool the more you become a host of the game.

[00:17:04] Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:17:08] There is more responsibility of the 16 year old A.I.M. for forever playing with him than he does of 31 year old and 30 or so.

[00:17:22] Because I’m thinking, well, now, if I play on PokerStars today, you have millions of people alive. Then I’m thinking, all right, if I play a tournament on PokerStars where maybe 10000 people participate, whether I participate or not, it’s not going to change the situation whatsoever for someone that I might be playing that have a gambling addiction.

[00:17:44] And then I’m thinking, what if everyone thought like this?

[00:17:50] Do you think that’s a value? Does that make sense to think like that? Because it’s right in one way. Every single professional choose to not play. There wouldn’t be a game running. But then that is that’s absurd. It’s absurd to think that that will happen at the same time. So is that a valuable way of thinking?

[00:18:11] If we take that with a completely different analogy, if you recycle.

[00:18:18] Yeah.

[00:18:20] So do you think that you recycling makes any difference whatsoever for the environment of the world?

[00:18:28] Yeah.

[00:18:30] So probably teeny tiny bit. And if everyone recycled, it would make a huge impact. And I’d say it’s the same scenario here with the poker. So you have a teeny tiny part in this. It wouldn’t really change for the world or for the other players if you didn’t do it. But if everyone did it, it will make a huge impact. So I’d say you’re equally part in in both of them. If you wouldn’t have recycled, for example, and wouldn’t play. Does that make sense?

[00:19:04] I guess.

[00:19:13] I guess it works to some extent when it comes to poker.

[00:19:26] I’m thinking if me not participating in a 10000 people tournament would cause a bad player to not participate ever.

[00:19:35] Probably not ever, but at the same time, with the recycling analogy, nothing would really change if you didn’t recycle either.

[00:19:45] On a larger scale, I’m thinking the effect I have in a tournament is that and I’m guessing now is that. The players in the player pool that would. That this would have a negative effect, too. Given that I’m a winning player, would be that the other professionals in the game because their environment would be more challenging.

[00:20:17] I’d like to just take a little sidestep here. Now we’re into something that’s super, super nation, super, super specific.

[00:20:24] Yeah, that probably 99 percent of the people listening to this. You’re right. You know what it has done? I’ve been fine with that. And we’re exploring us more than more than the guests. More than anything else, I would say it’s just something to be aware of.

[00:20:40] Just so let’s summarize this in one sentence and then move on. And I think we are we’re saying here that being the less players. In a gambling situation, the more you are affecting that, the game will actually happen. And when you are affecting that, the game will happen. That makes you into a host instead of a player. And then it’s when you’re actually drawing people into gambling that wouldn’t otherwise be gambling.

[00:21:08] Yeah, you’re kind of becoming the company. Exactly. Because you’re facilitating a game. You’re not participating in it.

[00:21:15] Yeah.

[00:21:18] I mean, this is for the company because, you know, one is charging anyone. So instead you kind of do it doesn’t voluntarily passage.

[00:21:24] Yeah. And that’s in that home game. When you’re 16. So it definitely you become the casino.

[00:21:30] Yeah. It’s basically like a football team. It wouldn’t exist if there wasn’t enough players. Yeah. So if you become a player you become part of the club in a sense. If it’s a very small.

[00:21:39] Yeah. So.

[00:21:47] I’d like to revisit the question about the first kind of negative experience, because you’re touching upon it when you’ve seen people losing in a life game. Yeah, but you chose to look the other way. Can you recall a specific situation where you didn’t manage to?

[00:22:06] But I think my first experiences with it, because I enjoyed the game so much when I started and I did honestly, I did not play a little bit I did, but mostly I played because I loved the game not to make money and I like liked it so much that I wasn’t considering quitting anyway. But what I did think about was that. Not everyone else. That place is going to have a gambling addiction. And the ones who play their losing are playing because they want a positive experience. So when I began, if someone lost trash-talking me live or in the shot, I would I could be aggressive back or write something mean back. It’s easier buying a keyboard, right? But then I realized if I’m ruining their experience, then that’s more or less bad for me because they are sort of paying to have a good experience. So then I am I’m taking away sort of what they’re paying for by being rude. So I guess the first experiences I have that I’m creating a bad situation is when I’m not behaving myself.

[00:23:23] That’s an interesting approach to this.

[00:23:25] It makes sense like you’re a when you’re winning and you’re being a douche bag on top of it.

[00:23:32] Yeah, yeah. I’m ruining the experience that they’re paying for. Yeah.

[00:23:38] I like what you’re saying now. With that you are paying for to me this has been my most common excuse. And I believe this is the most common excuse in the entire gaming industry. Yeah. Yeah. Whoever is playing is playing for entertainment and a lot of the time that’s true. But personally I think that I’m making. If there is 10 people, I’m kind of I want to think that 10 of them does not have a problem. And maybe actually five of them have a problem one way or another. And five of them are actually just entertaining because, sure, there might only be one that is actually addicted. But five of them is going to have a shitty evening talking to the missus or whatever because they lost money.

[00:24:25] So a lot of them will also have a negative experience even though they’re not in deep shit.

[00:24:33] How many do you think percentage wise actually have have a feeling where the entertainment value is worth the money lost? This obviously is a rough guess, but where would you feel?

[00:24:54] That’s so tricky to answer because I. I personally don’t like gambling. And that’s a weird thing to say when I’ve been gambling for ten plus years as a professional, but playing blackjack or a game where I don’t have an edge, I really don’t enjoy that. I never done it. So to me, gambling is not enjoyable. So I’m not sure how.

[00:25:29] It’s let’s say how many people that are smoking do you think enjoyed. I think that’s kind of tricky to answer. It’s very tricky to answer. I mean, they do enjoy the rush of it. Mm hmm. I would say that out of the players that are losing. Which means that it’s has a negative consequence. Maybe you can afford losing. So then it doesn’t have a negative consequence. But I think if you really pull down the layers of the onion, I would say it’s kind of close to zero. That they actually get more joy out of it than they. Dan?

[00:26:08] Yeah, yeah, I think and I’m guessing that I’m guessing that there are.

[00:26:13] There are definitely situations. Second such event, two very different situations where when gambling is fun or whatnot.

[00:26:23] First one just being myself, the first time I felt that, well, I cannot handle this. And I was playing playing poker. This is probably back in. Two thousand and eight to probably earlier. Yeah, I was 18 years old, movie, and I’m playing at a poker site that has this little blackjack icon, so you can any second go from poker to the blackjack and I’ve been losing on the poker table. Or maybe I’m just bored. And I remember and I click up the blackjack and I’m starting is betting a little bit for fun, a liberal for fun.

[00:27:02] And then I’m losing a little bit. So put myself in this martingale situation where you double the bet each time. So first time. You bet. 1 if you lose your bet, too. If you lose your bet for a win with 4, then you actually won more than you lost. And it’s a shitty system. Don’t do it, but it’s very easy to trick the mind with it.

[00:27:21] And I’m ending up with the last bets being all the money I have left.

[00:27:28] And I think that at the time that was fifteen hundred dollars was my last bet. And if I would have lost that, I would have lost all my financials as, yes, I got to be 18 when this happens, or maybe even 17.

[00:27:39] And I won that bet. I actually got a blackjack seat and got 1.5 times the money ending up with more money than when I started. Then I remember I sat there shaking after this and what the fuck did I do? And I went probably from didn’t even start betting until betting all the money I had in less than five minutes. It went so quickly without me even thinking about the process.

[00:28:04] And that’s my first experience with like, whoa, this is dangerous.

[00:28:10] And I blocked myself from the casino after that, I’ve barely played casino games at all after that, but I remember how quickly I got sucked into the screen and still being a professional gambler in a sense, at least for what you can say at the age of 17, 18 and.

[00:28:33] Yeah, how that prickly could have changed my entire life trajectory. I could beings if I would have lost that hand. I could’ve been in a completely different place right now. I probably would have.

[00:28:47] So I think it’s interesting then to see myself then as a person who have enjoyed gambling in a lot of ways. I actually do enjoy playing roulette in these kind of games. Sometimes I can see the thrill in that. But how easily could have maybe even destroyed my life? I wouldn’t say we have been destroyed from that hand only, but it could have happened that things would have changed dramatically.

[00:29:09] So with psyche that you had at that point, because that’s a real interesting example with the psyche you had at that point. Because I think the idea that everybody has a free will and free choice, that’s kind of overrated because everybody comes from different biologies, different psychology, different background, different traumas, different. A lot of things. And it’s sort of most an outdoor pilot going forward. And this sounded like a case. And I experience this as well when I’m feeling really, really bad. When I’m playing that out, a really bad version of the autopilot takes over and then just starts making really shitty decisions and it feels like an auto pilot. What you’re describing there so. Well, having experienced something like that. I think the idea that Grown-Up are responsible for their own choices. That almost becomes silly to to think like that when that defect is built into into the personalities that we are.

[00:30:07] Yeah.

[00:30:09] Could you have big it wouldn’t be fair to say that you’re responsible at that point.

[00:30:14] When they stop getting responsible.

[00:30:17] Yeah, I mean, it depends some how you see responsible would have been responsible to a court. Yeah, definitely. If I wouldn’t have been responsible. Am I ever responsible?

[00:30:32] It’s another aspect of that. But I definitely see your point. It’s very. I mean, the system is built to trick you. The system is built to create these habits.

[00:30:44] So you could argue that they would be illegal because they’re so good at tricking people.

[00:30:49] And another thing that just brings to mind, which is actually very similar, is the story I told the other podcast we did about how I bought the great dot com domain name in an auction and how I just instantly bid on those numbers. And that was hundreds of thousands of dollars without me thinking.

[00:31:12] And I might have done the same thing and ended up at 1.5 million or 2 million or shitloads of money without contemplating it because the state of the rush. So could you argue?

[00:31:26] I wouldn’t say that the experience is very, very similar for me personally and emotionally when I’m in that state would then be responsible for the bid I did in an auction.

[00:31:38] I don’t know. It becomes very similar at this point.

[00:31:42] By the way, if you’re listening. Some of you might be.

[00:31:49] Confused. Some of you might be furious thinking that we are idiots seeing stuff that is so clear to you that and that isn’t clear to us. And again, we are definitely not claiming to have any answers and insight here.

[00:32:04] We were here to learn together and to actually talk about this. And I haven’t talked about this this open before. So if you’re thinking we’re idiots, we would love to know that. So please write a comment and so we can expand our understanding. So we want you listening to be a part of this.

[00:32:24] Yeah, so I had two examples of of gambling, and the only scenario I’d see. I wouldn’t say only one of the scenarios I’ve seen where I could really enjoy gambling as a thing and actually even slot games, which I could never play. Know the spinning machines is what what is commonly referred to here in Malta in the gaming industry as the Friday spin, which usually is a couple of guys afterwork putting putting in 50 euros each or something and they set the computer on out to spend. So just plays the same game over and over again. They sit back, have a beer and watches it like it’s a football game. And then you do it together. So it’s actually a lot of fun doing it that way. And there’s probably very, very limited risk of creating a gambling issue or anything, because you’re doing it as a group.

[00:33:21] You’re winning as a group, you’re losing as a group. So that part of it I can really enjoy and I can see very limited downsides in it as long as you’re staying in the group. Problem is that it’s very unlikely that you do that. So it’s it’s still a gateway into the industry. But that’s to me, that’s a pure joy kind of experience.

[00:33:43] Then when when we’ve been doing this sort, what point to think it tips over from being entertainment to being sort of dangerous. So towards being addiction.

[00:33:57] A keyword that comes to me is prescence. So if I’m pressand in the moment, I’m I’m enjoying it. I’m here.

[00:34:04] And now then it’s joy when it’s becomes about avoiding the now. So when you’re not, you’re not.

[00:34:12] The autopilot is there. You’re not in a prescence yourself. There is some something above your head don’t doing this. Or when you’re playing to distract yourself from stress or from problems in your love life or whatever it might be.

[00:34:28] Then it becomes a completely different scenario and it’s a big problem. So if you’re coming. If you started playing with the energy of I want to enjoy this, then I think it’s.

[00:34:41] I wouldn’t say that it’s not dangerous, but a lot less dangerous. But if you’re coming from an energy of fuck, I need to distract myself.

[00:34:50] Then you’re in a tough spot.

[00:34:55] Yeah. What do you think? Call.

[00:35:07] Yeah, I think I think all kind of need to distract yourself from negative emotions and experiences. That’s fine sometimes for me. But if it’s a chronic thing that becomes very destructive and I spoke to your to your brother about this kind of recently and I liked his definition of when this becomes into the danger zone. And that is when you’re playing to win money instead of playing to have a good experience.

[00:35:40] Yeah, that’s true.

[00:35:46] I feel that we were a bit on the shallow part of this topic right now.

[00:35:50] I think that we can easily talk from the mind here, not really dealing with with guilt or our own feelings, and that’s how we feel.

[00:36:03] But see if we can dig deeper into this topic. Like what? What courses do you think? What what what are the possible levit negative effects. We’ve actually had.

[00:36:14] So if you’re looking for a worst case scenario in the negative effects that you might have had.

[00:36:22] What do you think those would be? Is that a question that you feel comfortable going to?

[00:36:28] Mm hmm. Yeah, sure. I.

[00:36:43] Especially when I have been playing heads up one on one and I am playing against someone that is tilted. Which means that they are there on this autopilot. There’s psychology annoyed and they’re making really bad decisions. I know that I have been writing things in the shot to try to. What is the. I tried to make this person even more angry so he would lose more money. And then, of course, I am contributing to that bad behavior. So in games, I certainly have not been an angel all the time. But the way I’m thinking about it lately is. I think one of the worst things that I’ve been doing. Is to spend a lot of time in the game. That is a serious sum game.

[00:37:40] And would you like to explore this here?

[00:37:43] Let’s get back to that one. Let’s think it’s an interesting thing, but I’d like to explore the Heads-Up situation. And I’d like to explore myself on that question first. So let’s take this. This heads up situation where if we go back to the being a part of creating the game situation, this person would have played otherwise. But now he’s playing against a professional. Maybe he wouldn’t have played against a professional otherwise. So in a sense, he’s in a worse spot than he would be if he would have been there. Is that true?

[00:38:21] And you are aware of that? This player is all to pilots. Would you say that you can you can see that easily.

[00:38:31] You say when someone is came by. Yeah, for sure.

[00:38:34] Yeah. So and you’ve been kind of wanting them to stay in their writing or playing in a certain way or whatnot, kind of tricking them to stay on autopilot.

[00:38:50] You’re thinking about a scenario like that. What feelings does it bring up?

[00:38:56] When I think of the isolated incident of me sitting with him, but at a table, I feel I feel guilty about it because I am tricking him to lose his money. To me, that’s what poker is about. The whole game is about deception and tricking people.

[00:39:14] Yeah, so that is giving me guilt. And to see someone going through suffering is painful even for me. That is winning. So.

[00:39:29] And in order to protect myself from that, I tried to sue mouth and seed from a bigger perspective, which is if we talk about the headset, which means you play one on one, if you’re going to a client like part of poker, you have a list of a hundred regulars, which is good players, professionals, sharks that are sitting and waiting for a player. And I’m getting someone to play against because they have clicked on my table by choice, by randomness, and decided to play with me and do it. I’m thinking about it and I’m not sure if this is right. Is that. If they hadn’t clicked on my table, they would have clicked on any other of the 100 other people sitting and would have had the same kind of behavior towards that player. So I see by the fact that I’m sitting there, I see the person that is mostly loosing is the person who would otherwise play against. And this is my way of rationalizing this, and I’m not sure if that is correct or if that’s a way for me to feel better about the situation.

[00:40:36] Yeah. It goes back to this. We were talking about before is do you have any responsibility in a 10000 player situation or not? And if you do, who has the responsibility? Yeah. So let’s say all the other professionals didn’t exist. You were the only one sitting there waiting just for a hypothetical situation. Would you still have done it?

[00:41:02] Today, I would not.

[00:41:04] When I was 18. For sure.

[00:41:07] A year ago.

[00:41:10] Not a year ago. Four years ago, probably.

[00:41:15] So what changed? When did you start rationalizing this or changing empathetically about this?

[00:41:25] Well, the reason I have thought like this, but haven’t choosen to stop playing is because I think the argument that you just made is.

[00:41:36] Absurd slash unrealistic, so you can say, well, if there was only one player in the game, which is the same thing as saying if everybody thought like you. Then this situation wouldn’t exist, but it’s it’s not going to happen that this situation doesn’t exist.

[00:41:55] Stomaching says. Could you could you could. Yes. Yes. Know. Yeah.

[00:42:02] So the questions I asked was, what changed for you? Because apparently you would have played four years ago, but you wouldn’t play today. So even even in this hypothetical situation, something changed within.

[00:42:16] You could see here a lot of things have changed within me. And for me personally, that is because I have been an active student of different spatial concepts where I I not prioritized qualities like generosity, empathy, caring for others.

[00:42:36] And I have developed those muscles in my brain, some capable of perceiving a situation for from more perspective than just my own.

[00:42:53] Ok.

[00:42:55] And I also see. I guess I perceive myself as being more connected to other people. So I and that perception is leading me to wanting to make decisions that are as benefit beneficial for the whole as possible compared to as beneficial for me, and I’m not all the way there. Of course I prioritize my seat, myself or other people, but I’m more skewed towards wanting to do what’s best for the most number of people. And with that perception comes different actions and values in these kind of situations.

[00:43:37] That changed.

[00:43:43] Would you like to explore me on this topic?

[00:43:45] Sure. Would you like me to use the poker example or would you like me to use the example of the business that you built?

[00:43:53] Let’s take the business.

[00:43:54] Koby’s no sense to me for for anyone listening. Eric’s background is he has founded a company called Catina Media that is doing online marketing towards Casino. So in the example that we spoke about before about being the player or being the host, you have definitely taken the host role here. So would you like to start from the beginning how you thought about it? That’s first when you got into it. Well, what? Well, what’s your ethical way of viewing this industry? When you got into it?

[00:44:31] I think we’ve touched upon it before that for a very long time, I didn’t even contemplate the ethical aspects. I didn’t even think about it. I. I ignored it with arguments like. Yeah, they’re grown ups. That’s their own responsibility.

[00:44:47] I wasn’t taking any responsibility whatsoever for what I was doing. And I’d say that lasted for for a long time, and to a large extent that’s still true. That’s still an argument I’m going to at least when I’m having the conversation on a shallow level, either with someone else or just with my head, like, yeah, I’m I’m not going.

[00:45:12] I’m looking the other way to a large extent when I’m just exploring it myself and see what kind of part I am.

[00:45:22] And this question pops up in my head and. It’s do I believe that I’m responsible for someone else’s suicide? And my answer is yes. I I believe that I played a part in someone else’s suicide and just I haven’t really contemplated this at all before, but I’m feeling that now and I’m feeling that because.

[00:46:01] I’ve been a part of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people playing casino, I’m sure most of them would have played either way, similar to the poker analogy we just did that most of them would have played either way. But since I’ve been involved with so many people during so time, a lot of them wouldn’t have played if I wouldn’t have been a part of sending them that email or adding this promotion or talking about this or that didn’t happen in that forum. They probably wouldn’t have done it.

[00:46:37] Enough people out of all of the people who complain, some of them have lost a lot of money and some of them might have committed suicide. That might not have happened to me if it wasn’t for me. I don’t know. This is hypothetical.

[00:46:57] But just thinking about that feeling, that makes it hard to look the other way. It’s it’s true.

[00:47:08] Well, it couldn’t be true. And even if it’s not sure, it at least means that I put people’s life at risk for my own benefit.

[00:47:17] That’s true. Regardless if someone else died or not, I put someone else’s lives at risk for my own benefit.

[00:47:26] And yeah, for a very long time I rationalized this by well, I didn’t rationalize as I looked the other way. I took zero responsibility.

[00:47:37] Another question that you and I talked about before the call was. How is my net effect positive or negative in the world? Everything that I’ve done, I’ve created tons of jobs have created I’ve donated lots of money, I’ve done a lot of good things. And at the same time. I believe I’ve done a lot more harm than good. To this day, I believe I’ve been a big part of something much worse than I’ve been a part of something good. And still, my main way of coping with this is pretending that it’s not true. But talking about it like this. Exploring it. I feel in my heart that it’s true. I’ve done a lot more bad things than good things.

[00:48:26] So when was the first time you just sort of realized this, this thought maybe I.

[00:48:35] I made someone else take their life.

[00:48:38] Two minutes ago.

[00:48:42] I don’t think I. I haven’t put it in those kind of words before. Not even to myself. I probably touched upon the idea somewhere far out in my consciousness, like.

[00:48:53] Yeah, that might have happened, but I’ve never said it out loud. I’ve never really gone there with my thoughts either. And definitely never said that it’s very likely that it’s true.

[00:49:09] Probably as far cry. Same thing for me. I was kind of indirectly or directly costof.

[00:49:16] Yeah. At least it’s fair to say that it’s true both for you and me that we have put other people’s lives at risk for our own benefit. We have no idea if anyone actually died or did anything that drastic.

[00:49:33] But the both of us have done that.

[00:49:38] And once again, we just tried talking on this topic, we have no specific direction or any place we’re going with this and we don’t have the right answers.

[00:49:47] That we are aware of this. I’m aware of this.

[00:49:51] And what would you like to say?

[00:49:52] Let’s say the parents of this person was listening now. What would you like to say to them?

[00:50:07] I have no idea. My mind gets completely quiet. If I were two faced with the parents of someone who’s taken their lives due to something I did or where I played a part in that.

[00:50:22] I would be speechless. I would have no idea what to say. If you could go back, would you create your company again?

[00:50:47] Not sure. I think I would can go ahead.

[00:50:55] But I’m not sure I had this discussion on LinkedIn yesterday about the morals of what I’m doing and what I’m not doing.

[00:51:02] And yeah, for for those of you. Listen, I want to do the most good possible. And I believe that one way of doing that is donating as much money as possible to do that.

[00:51:16] I cut cap costs and keep going because I thought we were somewhere deep there. And it seems like we’re getting out of the all of it.

[00:51:24] So I want explore. I think that I’ll get back to it. I think I’ll get back to the wormhole.

[00:51:32] So I want to do the most good possible. And that’s one way of me for them rationalizing going in to two gambling or staying healthy to be able to donate this money that I made.

[00:51:47] And yesterday I got the question like, can you do this in any other industry?

[00:51:55] And going back then to your question, I would have done it differently if I could have started over. If I could have those 12 years back, I wished I would have taken them into another industry and maybe I would have been able to take it from there. If I’m starting over today, I’m 12 years worth of knowledge into this. That’s gonna be a big percentage of my working life.

[00:52:23] And if I’m going in another direction, I’m gonna need to relearn it.

[00:52:29] And I believe that the difference I can make, even if this is the industry, is far bigger than if I tried to do something else. Even even knowing that that I am causing this harm.

[00:52:42] I would do it again today if I could go back in time, 12 years knowing what I know, I would have spent those 12 years learning another industry.

[00:52:56] Cool. So are you willing to kiss now you’re saying you’re starting the company? Great. That like that is going to be in the gambling industry and that company is likely going to have the fact that someone is killing themself. Are you willing to have that effect?

[00:53:26] I have screaming voices in my head right now saying both yes and no. So I don’t have a clear answer. I’m not sure if I would if I would be able to fully grasp the consequences. And at the same time, I feel that I will never be able to fully grasp the consequences.

[00:53:50] Spirit Conditional ain’t about that day.

[00:53:55] So my rational brain. Says that it makes all the sense in the world to do it. My emotional heart or brain, for that matter, is more toward. That I believe that the rational part of me is, is winning in this. So I do sincerely believe that staying in what I know, staying in in in gambling. Will make it. I believe that we would make at least three times as much money as if we tried something else where I have no experience and I think three times is a low number. And the rationale I did on Linked-In was, let’s say that we would make 10 million euros in profits in another industry giving that away. In the in the math of givewell, child’s life is roughly two and a half thousand euros a year.

[00:55:04] Well.

[00:55:05] So givewell, is this organization comparing now giving information about different charity causes and making it more tangible what it is that they’re doing. And according to them, the cheapest way of saving a life is with mosquito nets in malaria areas. And lives that you save are usually children below the age of five years old. And it will cost roughly two and a half thousand euros to save a life.

[00:55:36] So let’s say we would make 10 million euros in another industry and we would make 30 million euros in the gambling industry, then three times as much. The difference is 20 million euros or the equivalent of 8000 children’s lives. This brings, again, the moral dilemma. Is it worth. Being part of destroying someone else’s life if you can save 8000 children’s lives. Does the math make sense? I don’t know. It’s philosophical. To be honest, I think I would have a harder time sleeping at night knowing that I didn’t do whatever I could for those a thousand children. Then knowing that I harm someone else. So I think both of them, I will feel my my body with with guilt and grief. I do believe that the eight thousand children would make me feel more. Yeah, I think that it’s the morally correct choice to give to do whatever I can for the 8000 children.

[00:56:52] So let’s use that example, let’s say you make 30 million euros from gambling. That means that. I’m not sure how much grade would get from redirecting a player, but let’s say yes, I’m just guessing let’s safe. If great were to make thirty millions, someone would have to lose at least 100 million. I don’t know what the math is. But let’s let’s pretend that.

[00:57:13] So then.

[00:57:18] Then some people you don’t know would have to pay 100 million so that you can take the credit or that sort of great can take the credit for saving those eight thousand lives. Do you think that’s fair?

[00:57:37] To start with, I don’t like the perspective of taking credit into this. It’s a very, very small part of me that cares about the credit rather than the lives of these children.

[00:57:50] So.

[00:57:53] I would step away from the fray, so taking credit. But if we revisit the math logic, that actually makes a lot of sense and it’s very interesting to contemplate. So people would have to leave to lose 100 hundred million euros to save a thousand lives. So far, that makes sense. That means that every life is not actually two and a half thousand euros. It’s. What the set up to this is why we should have someone with a calculator next to us.

[00:58:33] Let’s say that’s up to twelve and a half thousand euros done. Shouldn’t be. If I’m not mistaken. Yeah. Twelve and a half thousand euros.

[00:58:44] So the life is actually not two and a half thousand euros. This way it’s twelve and a half thousand euros.

[00:58:50] And it’s twelve and a half thousand euros coming from. Strangers, people we don’t know.

[00:58:58] The next question then is how many people would this be? Is it eight thousand people losing this or is it 80000 people being part? Does it even matter?

[00:59:10] Um, I don’t know.

[00:59:13] It’s interesting math that’s hard to do like this and makes me for the first time actually question if gambling is the right choice or not. Which scares me because I feel that I have this figured out and now I realize I might not.

[00:59:35] Yeah, I don’t have the answer, but I’m questioning something they haven’t questioned before.

[00:59:41] Would you like some time to think?

[00:59:54] I don’t think I will get to any. Valuable conclusions from here.

[01:00:02] I don’t think time to think would really make a difference unless it’s a couple of hours of conversations and we don’t have that time.

[01:00:10] I mean, I hate to go out of there. Devil’s advocate energy that I’m playing so skillfully, right by putting you into tough spots. But. With great. I think one thing that makes a big difference here is that those hundred millions, they are kind of similar to what I was describing, that if I wasn’t one of those when I was playing poker, if I wasn’t one of those hundred sharks waiting in the lobby, the blues in play would lose to another shark. So out of those 100 million that people would have to lose in order to finance saving these a thousand lives with the math that we are making up right now as an example, how much of those 100 million do you think would be lost anyway to a casino owner that would not use that money to save lives, but instead would use it for.

[01:01:07] I’m guessing the luxury.

[01:01:11] That’s a very valid point and it changes the math dramatically.

[01:01:16] Yeah.

[01:01:17] That’s a minimum of 90 percent would have been lost either way because we’re not going to play. We’re not going to do aggressive TV campaigns. We’re not going to be the ones doing all of these campaigns or whatnot. So probably 90 percent would have been lost either way.

[01:01:35] Which.

[01:01:36] Means that there’s only 10 million being lost rather than 100 million that we have played a role in. And we’re just redirecting all the other revenues from.

[01:01:52] That’s a very valid point.

[01:01:56] And taking that even further, we’re also taking money away from marketing campaigns and stuff elsewhere because those money would be donated.

[01:02:05] So if those 30 million would have been made in in profits in in a company that does aggressive marketing campaigns, a lot of it would on top of this generate more players to go into gambling and they spend that way when we would be giving it away instead of just going deeper than I thought.

[01:02:28] Now.

[01:02:31] You know, when we’ve probably both heard this question the first time when we were 13. If a robber came in to a bank and to you and five other people as hostage. And he said, I do kill one person or I kill everyone here. And the question is, why would you kill that person?

[01:02:54] How do you think about a question like that?

[01:03:02] It’s it’s so hard, especially being.

[01:03:08] Being in this there is.

[01:03:11] I don’t have the correct answer to it.

[01:03:15] I rationally once again. I think it makes sense to kill one person, to save other lives. If you for a fact know that this is true self and you don’t. The robber. You don’t know if he’s actually gonna kill the other ones or would just threaten you. But let’s say we know 100 percent that history. Then rationally, I would have killed the other person. Well, someone would kill the robber. I just need to kill one person. You see what I did there? Burjanadze It’s so tricky. Once again, rationally, it makes perfect sense. On the other hand, do I have the right to play God?

[01:03:55] I don’t know. Let’s hope I never get into that position. And I mean, it’s pretty much what we’re doing here. We just don’t know the math in that example. We know it’s 1 to 5. And if that’s not morally correct, let’s say let’s say it’s not correct with 1 to 5. Is there a number where this correct one to five hundred one to five million, 1 to 5 billion? Is it correct to kill one person to save the population of the earth? At the end of the day, it’s just the scale. I believe that. Not everyone, but most people would say it’s correct to sacrifice one life to save the population of the earth. So then it’s just in mom matter of numbers.

[01:04:43] It’s tricky when it get so tangible that you have to do it. You have to be there. It’s like, what would you do? I think a lot of people would just put the gun to their own handguns, guns and kill one person and that would lead themselves. Because it’s that’s the only life you’re actually in charge of.

[01:04:59] Yeah.

[01:05:02] Yeah, it’s a tough one. And I like analogies like that because it becomes so graphic.

[01:05:09] Somehow. It’s the same thing. It’s a challenge for charity to those a thousand lives that just a number. But it’s actually real people that otherwise would die in a way or disfigure them or traumatize them with these horrible diseases. That is for real. It’s real people dying from really horrible diseases. And if you choose not to do this, then you’re choosing to let those people die. So it’s. There’s no really good decision.

[01:05:41] It’s always a choice.

[01:05:43] So since we’re running short on time here, I want to wrap this up with what kind of responsibility do you see that you have with great when it comes to gambling addiction?

[01:05:54] And what are you going to do about it?

[01:06:01] Haven’t been contemplating that much. What kind of responsibility I had before this call, to be honest. But I have been contemplating a lot of ways that I would like to.

[01:06:12] Great to play an important role in in preventing gambling addiction.

[01:06:19] I really like part of what we’re doing would be to help whoever is addicted. I spoke to to a friend yesterday, two days ago, who’s been going through a gambling addiction and almost killed himself. And he told me about this program that he had been a part of with the psychiatrist, something people that helped him that have been so important for him and it had been free. And now the program doesn’t exist anymore because they didn’t receive funding. So I’d like to make sure that those kind of programs exist and that they can be free and really help people. So there are effective methods. The problem is that people they’re expensive and people don’t pay for them for them.

[01:07:09] So in his words, he said that this could still be free if you went through social services and asked them to help. If you asked them, they could help you. But he said that for him, that would never have been a choice. He would rather killed himself than ask for help from social services because that’s simply his pride and how he was raised. So even though if it exists now. If he has that reasoning, then a lot of other people have that reasoning, so they might rather kill themselves and ask for help. So I want to be able to pick these people up before be able to have a way of giving help without them really asking for it or at least not having to do it so openly. So if you have to go through social services, you can’t do this anonymously. But if you will be able to keep talking to a psychiatrist just online in a web forum using your nickname than you would. So I want to create ways of lowering that barrier and be able to to help in these ways. And there are a lot of other similar things.

[01:08:18] But basically the logic is that if we’re gonna do really good at marketing and really good at making people play, we also want to be really, really good at doing the most possible we can to help these people and make sure that we pick up whoever is actually playing from a problem perspective and making that transition very, very easily.

[01:08:41] And the difference for us and other companies in the gambling industry is that we do not have the intention of making money. We don’t have the intention. That’s that’s not our end goal. We’re not going to benefit shareholders. We want to do the most possible good. So a big part of that would be that we will actually be able to be responsible for the harm that we do, taking a responsible that I have not taken in the past and doing that in various ways.

[01:09:11] Cool. And to clarify, if you are tuning into this for maybe the first couple of times, is that great would be a Denticare company as Catina Media doing online marketing towards casino, but give away 100 percent of its profits to charity.

[01:09:30] Yes. Cool.

[01:09:36] Huh. I feel like I have a lot to think about after this call. I would love to do a follow up on this in maybe six months, one year and see if we have taken our thinking in this further. Yes. Cool. I want to end it with this kind of energy. But the forward do has something to say to wrap up this this podcast.

[01:10:00] Yes, though I’d like to revisit that, we don’t know the correct answers here. I’ve got an analog question, but what the purpose of this podcast us and we don’t have a purpose. We are here to explore this topic and invite anyone who wants to be a part of this journey, be a part of this journey, listening to us, contemplating these things as well as transparent salaries in these things. So I went in this conversation being nervous because I was afraid it wouldn’t be entertaining and. I don’t want to be entertaining. That’s not that’s not the energy I want to come. I want to be able to explore these topics the way we’ve done now. And I’m very happy with what we did, especially the last part of it, I think made very good sense and just questioning these things. And I really want to question these things. I want to be able to feel that I’ve at least given the ethical aspects a lot of thought and not just look the other way and kept running.

[01:11:04] Yeah, I’ll end it there. You want to add anything?

[01:11:09] I like what you said to stop looking away and I think a lot about this. Maybe we don’t come up with an answer, but at least we’re not looking away.

[01:11:20] I think that’s the key. They’re not ignoring it. Cool. All right, I take responsibility for our choices in that.

[01:11:32] I enjoyed exploring this with you. Me, too. I felt like I learned stuff. All right, cool. I’m gonna let you run away. Have a good day, Eric. Thank you. Cheers. Bye.