#16 – Charity product – A greater user experience

Transcript

[00:00:02] Hello and welcome to our latest episode of Are Becoming Great podcast, where me and my good friend Emil explore topics, learning together and talking about how we are building great Falcoff, which will be this next generation charity project, a company that will donate 100 percent of the profits to charity. My name is Eric Bergman and I’m the founder of this and this is my good friend Annelle.

[00:00:29] How are you feeling today?

[00:00:31] Hello. I feel like a very energetic child being mistreated by having to sit still at school. I usually stand up and I’m sitting down and I feel horrible. How are you feeling? I really like your level. It’s like I’m the queen of England.

[00:00:48] Yeah, I kind of pictured you as the Queen of England. I can really see it. Somehow you looked like Warren Buffet is a queen, though. Yeah, that’s. I like the boys. We should work more without the circus.

[00:01:00] I’m I’m very well excited to be here. I’ve been we’ve been very last minute preparing for this podcast, which feels good. And I’m excited. Little teeny tiny bit nervous as well. Actually, I’m not sure why. Either way, let’s jump into this.

[00:01:17] So today we are exploring the topic of charity. And the name of this episode is Charity Projects. A user experience and we’ll explore why.

[00:01:33] And this started way, way back. I’ll start with a little story. I’m seven years old and remember this really cool kid in school. I thought I was that guy. And my father, we were on the beach and he always started cleaning the beach and, you know, cool kids don’t clean the beach and cool kids fathers definitely don’t either. So so it’s like, Dad, stop doing that. People are watching.

[00:02:07] And now I do the same thing, so whenever I’m walking on the beach, it’s like, hey, there’s plastic doing this and kind of blaming my father for it, but it feels surprisingly good to actually doing something for someone else.

[00:02:21] And this is stuck with me. So I think this is one of the angles that got us started with with charity. And one of the things that I love about it, you realize that you’re super cool. Well, I realized back then I wasn’t the cool kid. And today I know I’m the cool side and the cool adult. The obvious, no. In fact, at some point, you know, you know, the the Fonz, you know, the guy who just banked on jukeboxes and made them start playing, huh? Every time I see a jukebox, I just bump guitar and he starts playing. So far, I’ve seen zero jukeboxes, though, but I’m 100 percent sure. Well, regardless. So what we want to accomplish with great and our main goal is to make the lives better for as many people as possible. And charity will play an important part in that. And we want to help people to have the best possible experience when they’re donating, partly because we want their experience and their lives to be as good as possible and partly because we want the world to donate. More and more people can contribute from from the help. And that’s why we’re creating a charity project and a credit creating a product around this with what we wanted to see out there.

[00:03:48] Why do you think it’s important to increase people’s experience of contributing?

[00:03:58] I can just relate to myself where I have donated in the past or not donated in the past because I haven’t quite understood it and I haven’t been getting an emotional kick out of doing it. I’ve been giving away money and it feels like it’s disappearing and I haven’t been able to grasp what’s been going on. And that means that I don’t get a good experience myself. Doesn’t make me feel better in any way, and it doesn’t result in me doing it again. I think that’s the challenge in this. You have a similar experience.

[00:04:43] Well, when I hear you speak about what comes to me is that it might seem if you’re listening to this, it might seem a little bit selfish. Wanting to have a good experience from giving. Giving should be about the person that is receiving. Right. And at the same time. I guess I’m starting to understand how both are very important because this product is about well-being and you and I, we have been listening to, for example, Tony Robbins that highlights the importance of contributing that that is one human need to actually feel good. We need to feel that we are contributing. So I don’t thing that wanting that emotional connection is been at all. I think we need that.

[00:05:30] And I think that is an important part of what I think great will do when it comes to charity. Can we give that emotion to contribute to people’s well-being?

[00:05:42] I like what you’re saying there.

[00:05:44] I mean, that it’s that it’s selfish or at least it seems selfish, and because of that, it’s it’s a bad thing. It would be selfish to give to feel good. Yeah. Oh, it is. Our human need to feel good in that aspect. The reason we’re doing it or kind of ties into this.

[00:06:05] It’s kind of unfair to say, oh, you should be this Gandhi type character. Ignoring your needs and be completely selfless. I think.

[00:06:16] I think filling that need is very natural and I would like great to help people do that.

[00:06:23] Yeah, yeah, I heard this.

[00:06:26] I can’t remember who said it, so I’ll just steal the credit and claim that it’s my own idea. It’s yours. It’s mine.

[00:06:34] It’s a better life. You believe it?

[00:06:37] Now, I saw this speech somewhere. I don’t remember where it was. And he spoke about donations and charity as transactions so that everything is a transaction you give. And what you get is the feeling of importance or validation or whatever. So if a some someone is sitting and begging outside a store, you give a little money and what you get in return is somewhat of a positive feeling. And that all charity then in one way or another is is transactions we give and the product that we receive is a good feeling.

[00:07:21] And I don’t think there should be shame about that.

[00:07:26] It hit me that to me that could be celebrated. But that is a need that we have.

[00:07:32] What do you think there is shame with it?

[00:07:37] It’s almost like a spiritual deal. I think to be completely selfless. I think some of us have in our mind, if we think about a guru or someone that is enlightened, that they’re sitting on a mountaintop somewhere being completely selfless. And I think that actually distances, distances us from a part of our human nature.

[00:08:00] Yeah, yeah, I think it was Aristotle or someone smart old dude who said the ideal man is a man who gets his pressure from giving to others. Mm hmm. And the Dublin should be the ideal. Everyone is kind of looking for, but at the end of the day.

[00:08:19] Well, that section got it sounds healthy like your first, Studley said. Well, the ideal man should give to others and be just super cool and don’t show him. Feel nothing on the inside.

[00:08:30] Right. Yeah. You just posted on Facebook to get credit for it, but actually just bragging. Yeah. Mm hmm. I wonder if that’s what Aristotle said. Regardless, we’re kind of losing track here.

[00:08:41] Yeah, this sidetrack. But an interesting one. It’s electric. You ask me what my experience would with giving is. And. I’ve read quite a bit about charity over the last two years since we started this project, but before that, me, as many people have very limited knowledge about this very complex field. So I remember I was around 20 and I wanted to contribute in some way, donate some money like 20, 50 dollars a month. And I was looking out for an organization that I could support. And it felt like a lot of this, especially the big organizations. It felt like the money was going into a black hole almost regardless if I was helping children or humans or animals. It felt like. I could not get a grasp of what exactly is my money going to do so. And I can imagine many people feel like this, that it’s like a black hole and whatever money I put into this black hole, it’s just gonna get absorbed and I will never see. Any of it. Just like a black hole doesn’t emit light. I’m never gonna see what happened. So I choose an organization that is called s.o.s. Schild Religious, maybe in English? I’m not sure. Something like that. And in that organization, instead of helping the entire organization, all your money get sent to one child and you follow them over time. And that became very important for me. That emotional connection to that person was something I could see and something I can understand. There was a follow up. I get got a letter from this from the child.

[00:10:29] And yeah, I meant a lot to me.

[00:10:34] It was you actually saw the difference and it became personal.

[00:10:39] Yeah. Exactly. And back then, I wasn’t really into the numbers of charity.

[00:10:47] So that connection and that feeling. Yes, like we talk about. It was a transaction. I wanted to feel good about doing this.

[00:10:54] Right. And.

[00:10:58] Would it be appropriate if I say, let me put it this way. We have been researching.

[00:11:04] A lot of organizations out there that are looking for what is the best and most effective way to do charity. One of them is called givewell that aag. And we will talk about that organization later on in this episode. So they’re comparing the numbers to putting a lot of hours into research about different charity organizations. And I think these organizations are doing a great job to people who are very number oriented. They want to know exactly what is my money doing exactly? How can I do the most good with my money? Fantastic four number oriented people. So if I meet someone in the streets now and I want to help them get into charity, I can if they are number oriented person, if I can sense that’s their personality. I can easily send them to givewell straight away. But I think there is a gap if I’m talking with someone that I know is emotionally oriented or visually oriented. I don’t have a good sense to where should I send them to learn more about the feel of charity?

[00:12:15] It’s definitely challenging, I can can relate to that as well. At the same time. So you’re sticking to this, would you say? No oriented. You catch me as a very number oriented person in general. Yes. This story you shared before was very visually and emotionally oriented with with a child where you could actually really see this. Would you say that you still need touch them or have you been able to kind of. Is the numbers enough for you?

[00:12:47] That’s a really good question. I. I feel like I always needed that. And I think that I. Still.

[00:12:58] Yeah. Yeah, I think so, too.

[00:13:03] I just look at myself and how I how I started doing everything from a very visual and emotional aspect and then shifted over to doing these mosquito nets and vitamin A deficit’s things that Gabe will recommend very highly. That are very efficient. It’s very hard to understand from an emotional level. And I lost connection to charity doing that. And I didn’t feel anything, even though I consider myself a very number oriented person. I’m clearly not that number. Generator number one.

[00:13:41] Well, to be fair, like when it comes to calls like preventing malaria. So one of the top ranked organization from givewell perspective. But that’s been the top ranked for many years. It’s called Against Malaria Foundation. And they are giving out insecticide treated mosquito nets to poor people around the world. A lot of that is in Africa and. That idea doesn’t get me emotionally or visually connected at all, but I have been practicing for myself looking at researching what is life like for someone living in extreme poverty and through some Web site by gapminder called Dollar Street, where you can fall, you can see exactly how really poor families are living. And then I use those images to create the story in my mind of what their life actually be. How would your life be different if they had these mosquito nets? How would your life be different if their children was nourished? So I created a lot of sensations for myself to get me more connected to this course, but this was not done for me. So this had to take a lot of engagement from me. And I did that because I work with great, but I’m not sure I would have done it otherwise. So now I have made myself wish and viscerally and emotionally connected, but I had to do it on my own.

[00:15:03] I like where this is going. This is not at all what we were prepared and where I thought was going, but what you’re saying now is that you’re creating a visual journey for yourself that make you emotionally connected to, for example, against Malaria Foundation. Yeah. But what is what? What I hear you saying that is missing from both give well then and against malaria foundation themselves is. That emotional that visual and emotional journey. Yes, they were to communicate with Dollar Street, for example, as you mentioned, this gap. Your horns still selling organization. If they were to communicate like that, you would feel a stronger connection to these things.

[00:15:47] Yeah, for sure. And for you listening, we will send a link to gapminder and Donya Street and givewell and against my definition and description below. So you dont need to keep anything in your in your head.

[00:16:01] Yeah, I know you mentioned that you had been listening to Tim Ferriss and saying that you should create the product that you would like to see for yourself.

[00:16:14] Yeah.

[00:16:17] And that’s pretty much done what what we’re looking to achieve here to create this product. You mentioned that the visual and emotional part of charity and being able to combine that with the numbers.

[00:16:30] Yes, for sure. And I think I think as an organization like givewell, they are. But it’s only in the area of helping humans. But in that area, I think they are doing it better than we ever could. So there’s no reason for us to create a verse version of givewell. So instead, I think it makes more sense to look at what are we good at and can we compliment that service somehow?

[00:17:01] Yeah.

[00:17:03] Yeah, that makes sense. So what we are good at then? What we are aiming to be good at is communicating these things, creating the visuals for this and creating the emotional connection and then tying that in to their research or other research out there. Yeah.

[00:17:19] And what you are it’s what you have a lot of experience with that. I’ve shown that you you have a very good track record with understanding online marketing and SEO search engine optimization. That is what made you successful in your last company. So that is also something that you could bring to the table, which. I’m guessing now that many shadow organizations are not doing perfectly well, we could add more value.

[00:17:47] Yeah. So basically, if we look at at givewell and a lot of other organizations out there that show amazing results. They are often professors, really smart mathematical people, and they’re communicating in the way of of that, as you touched upon before. What the background I come from is marketing and trying to come up with the best ways of selling something or connecting someone to something. And what I’ve been seeing when I look at these various sites are that they are usually communicating with a lot of texts and a lot of times not the most relevant things. So, for example, givewell has this top list of this is the 10 best organizations according to their data. These are the most efficient ones. And just visiting those Web sites, few of them even communicate that they have been ranked as a top 10 organization in the world by givewell. And that would be like remember back in the days when you went and rented movies in the DVD store? At least I always went to the top lists like this is the top 10. I pick some from them and on the cover was always we have won an Oscar or we have this nomination or this and this. People say this about us because that’s what we’re looking for. We’re looking for credibility. And these organizations could put that at the top of their website. The first thing they see, hey, we are trusted. We got the Oscars of charity and a lot of them don’t. So I can see very simple things that could be improved. And it’s basically because these are very smart people with data number crunching, but they don’t have a marketing experience and they don’t come from selling things in general. Second, see us adding value here. And I really like what you said before about combining it with dollars street and show painting this picture to create the products in between here.

[00:19:49] Yeah, yeah.

[00:19:51] For sure. To make it easier to understand and visually get emotionally connected to the costs. So the title of this episode is a great user experience. What else to see that growth can do to improve the user experience? Can that even be measured?

[00:20:11] So what you touched upon in the beginning was describing your best user experience in a sense with charity, like even getting a letter from this child, seeing this child and what’s going on with that. So you have actually tested SBW born are also as children, religious or whatever the English name would be for it. And you’re describing this experience? Yeah. So that’s one of the things that we want to do is test these charities and describe the experience. So how easy was it to donate? How much did they follow up? How personal did things feel and ranked them accordingly? Like this is where you as a donor would get the best experience based on a certain number of predefined criteria. This is how easy it was to actually send the money, because in some situations you need to fill in 30 fields of information and do a bank transfer. And that’s just not good enough. And in others, you could just send an estimates and you’re done. And it’s much easier to be able to rank these user experience in a way that. It’s similar to what TripAdvisor are doing for four restaurants or hotels and these kind of things get. First and foremost, I think we need to do this because it’s hard to get anyone else to do that. And that could be kind of the benchmark. This is our experience. And then really encourage other people have donated money to go in and say, hey, this was my experience, know based on that, be able to grade different charities so you can rank them on who gets the best experience and then combining that data with the data that givewell and others already have with who are the most efficient.

[00:22:00] Yeah, I think that would be really cool, especially if you could explain this very simple when it come to the site. Maybe you can choose an option when you enter or your number oriented or emotionally or visually oriented when it comes to charity. And then you get a ranking based on that.

[00:22:16] Yeah. Like that to be able to see.

[00:22:21] Or maybe not even asking that question, but asking other questions that kind of leads to that answer, I’m not sure. The question that should be but it’s if you ask me if I was number oriented or emotion oriented, I would probably have said numbers. But then again, I’m probably more emotionally oriented. But to me, growing up, I’ve been taking pride in being a logical, reasonable person that focus on numbers. And while older, I’ve realized that that’s all bullshit and an identity I created for myself. I’m actually an emotional mess who makes all of my decisions on what I’m feeling. So I would. Be able to create that ad. Framework basically that, you know, when it comes to the site and they want to either learn more about charity or donate more. Basically help them to guide them to what’s the best organization for them. So starting with asking maybe what do you care most about humans or nature? Because that’s a big thing for a lot of people. Whereas some people only want to donate to nature and only want to donate to two people. And then based on that answer. OK, so the next question, let’s say you pick you pick the nature, OK? Do you care most about carbon dioxide or animals can guide towards this and maybe you pick carbon dioxide then and after that we will then, right. These are the organizations where we see both do the biggest difference and have the best user experience and combining data. And we could even you can even have a look then to see. OK, this is the best user experience if that’s what drives you the most or this is where you might have the absolute best returns or make the biggest difference with your money, but they might not be as good as making all that difference.

[00:24:15] And I think a lot of people do care about both. So maybe someone like you and I, we want to. If we have five stars, for example, maybe you and I want a five star ranked. Shareda inefficiency. But you know what, we want at least three stars and user experience. If it’s one star around issues, one that it’s a little bit less effective, but with more user experience stars. Yeah. And to be able to find a cool sorry you care about. I think it’s important.

[00:24:44] Yeah, definitely. You know, one thing that comes to mind. Speaking, but what you touched upon before that it’s the storytelling aspect is. And something that I’ve actually shared with people who are looking to guess just get inspired is a speech by think. His name is Scott Harrison, the founder of the letter. And it’s from I think he’s speaking on a stage in Paris like five years ago. And we’ll share that link in the description as well. And he’s sharing the story about how how they have created charity water and how they make it so easy for anyone to see I’ve donated money to charity water helps people to get clean water. That’s their thing. They drill wells and they do these kind of things. And all the wells that they drill can be seen on Google Maps. And they have crowdfunded for a triple car, a big, big truck that goes around and drilling these wells. And that car has his own Twitter account. So wherever it’s drilling, it sends out the coordinates and this is what’s going on. So it’s very easy for someone to follow. And yet they really manage to create the user experience, but they’re not listed in any lists like givewell and these kind of organizations. I don’t know how efficient they are, but they really manage to do that part. Well. Sense is it is interesting to see that that’s really, really moved me and made me change a lot how I’ve been thinking about these things.

[00:26:21] Yeah, I agree. That’s by fast, but by far the best storytelling I’ve seen in the feel of charity and the best. Small emotional videos were day they create something really visual, really emotional. We’d like good music and it’s really well put together.

[00:26:40] Yeah, I really like that.

[00:26:44] So if we should wrap this up a bit and see what our what kind of product it is that we are creating, what what boxes do you want us to take with this product?

[00:27:00] Well, I agree with about. We talked about Tim Ferris in the beginning to make the product that you want to see. So if I’m talking with someone about charity, I don’t have nothing comes to me. That is a great introduction to them. Nothing comes to me where this is. The first link I would send to you is a really good book calling. Doing good better by a guy called William MacAskill. But asking someone that is new to field to read a book. It’s a it’s a too big commitment. So something that makes giving easier to understand, something that speaks to the personality type that is visiting the site. Something that expedients. Maybe the process of giving makes it easier. Makes it more convenient. Something. I think a product where the experience of giving to a organization is measured. So it’s not just that we are using someone else’s list of comparing, but we have actually tested out their organizations. Help me out, I might be forgetting things. What else?

[00:28:15] I think that you’re summarizing this this very well. And I just like the thought of, oh, we want to build a product that we think is missing, something that we would want to use. And exactly. Yeah.

[00:28:30] Something that I would have liked to use. Couple of years ago when I was near to this.

[00:28:34] Yeah. And something that would be the perfect place to start. So basically creating a product that makes giving a better experience. Yeah. Which will serve two purposes that people will feel better when they’re giving and they will then get more. So people will get more help.

[00:28:53] Yeah. And I think that is a compliment that we can give to this field because honestly, the guy said, well, for example, they’re doing incredible, incredible work.

[00:29:02] They have met a lot of people, doing a lot of very in that research, cranking the numbers. And that wouldn’t be the area where we excel at unless we are hiring someone to do that work. But I think the communication, the marketing aspect, SEO aspect, the storytelling aspect. The measuring aspect I see those things are kind of far. A, this there’s something to fill out there. I think in those areas.

[00:29:35] Yeah, I agree.

[00:29:37] It’s interesting. And coming up with a way then. I like what you said early on as well with with shame that there is a shame to this that be able to change that. I said, know, how can we? This is gonna be a whole other episode probably. But how can we make people proud of donating and not feeling any shame about it? Jim Gosh, with that, how can we create a product that makes it cool to donate? These are questions that I’d like to explore when creating this. How can. How can people be proud of donating and that becomes a topic that people talk about.

[00:30:15] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:19] We should explore this. We are going to explore this man on another in another episode. I think that’s that could be a very important shift to make it. Feel good to donate publicly because there is one site that I’m really inspired by some ex professional poker player and there is one charity organization that is cold raising for effective giving WREG charity dot org.

[00:30:42] I think the link below. Link below. Exactly. And they are.

[00:30:50] Poker players are pledging to donate a part of their yearly winnings and then they wear a patch. So if you’ve got to live poker tournament these days on. I would say almost one player per table or one player per to table is OK in the Vergne series. Maybe one player or two tables, one player, three tables. So you see them everywhere wearing this patch. That’s why I have pledged to donate money. And the rationale behind this is that if you’re gonna give, you are doing more good if you give publicly, because that will inspire other people to give as well. And I think that is working very well. And then again, day that it’s a German company, very mind rational. It’s the most effective thing to do to donate publicly. But can that idea speak to emotional, ambitious people as well? That will feel the best is to donate publicly. Also, not just the main thing, and I’m ignoring my emotions to do the most good. I’m not saying this organization is doing that, but can we share that idea to emotionally organa oriented people as well?

[00:32:01] I like that. That’s that’s another box we really want to take with them, making creating a product that people are so proud of using, that they get the best experience they feel the most and they share it.

[00:32:14] Yeah. I mean, I would like to have my own profile on great dot com, maybe a great dot com slash charity slash their male escort. And on there I could list every donation I have done in my in my lifetime how I want to proceed moving forward about how much I want to give and check-ins easily see the kind of change. That I made and to be able. I would like to share that every year on my social media accounts, for example, because I think it’s so important to.

[00:32:45] To do that, because I do think that it inspires people.

[00:32:50] And for me, I would like I would like to see the kind of difference that I made in my life because I am a lot like that. So asylum, which donation? I mean, I thought about that. Now, when when we created this episode, I have forgotten about that.

[00:33:05] Totally.

[00:33:07] Place basically your charity diary where you can go back to the years from now and see, hey, I actually did some difference already 20 years ago. Wow, I wonder how that kid is feeling now. That was the kid I was supporting when I was.

[00:33:19] Yeah. Yeah. And like, I would like to upload a picture there of my of that foster shop. I helped. I like that because I better remember what they looked like now. But if there was a profile like this, I would remember that in 30 years time.

[00:33:36] I like that.

[00:33:38] Yes, we have a lot of things to to touch upon. I think that we touched upon all the things about this product and a lot more. Do you want to add something or should we wrap this up?

[00:33:50] I think what’s really cool is how this is going to how similar this is to the casino product that we are creating, both in terms of marketing, of measuring, of SVO only these things.

[00:34:06] Yes. Basically, the commercial side of things that we want to do is starting with casino and the future on maybe insurance’s traveling, whatever and focusing on actually testing the user experience there. Say where is the best casino, where do I get the best offers? But also what’s the fastest loading page? Who do not send estimates to me everyday and just bug me? What? What what’s that experience like? And this will be a very similar thing where we focus on where is the best experience. What do I as a user get out of it? You know, looking at. So this is something that’s done a lot for like hotel staff. Can’t do this, but they mainly focus on price because it’s so easy to compare it. But we really want to measure and test the user experience, which is a lot more work and why few people do it. And the reason why, as far as I know, no one does this within charity at the end of the day where it’s might be hard to believe, but the casino product and the charity product are going to be very, very similar. That is very different.

[00:35:13] I think we can explore this a lot more, but I suggest that we save that for the next version of this episode. I think we touched upon a lot of interesting points today. We’re got into many explorations that we didn’t plan on doing ahead of time, which I love when that happens. And I do think this describes where our thoughts are right now for this project. And I’m sure this is going to change a lot moving forward.

[00:35:45] But yeah, I feel clearer. Do you have something you want to add that you don’t think we touched upon?

[00:35:54] No, I think I’m I’m looking forward to doing another episode of this. Well, one thing worth mentioning is that we are not going to start developing this side of the business very soon. We want to have the casino part of the business up and running before we can start developing this, really, because we need an engine and something to run the organization financially before we can build a very big, expensive project. So from a timeline perspective, hopefully we can start developing this maybe six months from now. I don’t know, but this is where we want to become in 10 years from now. This is going to be an amazing project, an amazing product. We will be very, very proud. But it’s going to take time before we get started.

[00:36:40] Mm hmm.

[00:36:42] Also, and just to add that as well, if this is the first time listening, the idea behind Great is that we are not going to accept donations. Instead, we’re going to make it easier to donate to other organizations.

[00:36:57] Yeah, it’s true. It’s worth adding, yeah. And we’re very open for ideas on how this idea of how to build this project or product, someone has been thinking about it. You who are listening, please send us an e-mail to podcast at great dot com and we will be very happy to hear your input.

[00:37:16] Yes. And especially in this area, I would say nothing is set in stone. So we’re very open to hearing new ideas and new perspectives and inspiration of any kind.

[00:37:27] So that would be very helpful for us. So thank you for day. All right. Goodbye.