#73 - Powerful leadership skills - Appreciation

Summary

A great leader makes people excited to move in a certain direction. A great leader makes everyone around them better and more confident.

One of the most powerful ways to do that, is by becoming good at showing appreciation. It costs nothing and it can be remembered forever.

Today's episode is about Powerful leadership skills with focus on appreciation leadership skill.

The episode is split up in four parts:

Part 1:
Appreciation is a skill that you can study to learn

Part 2:
What is most powerful, appreciation or bonuses?

Part 3:
Tips on how to show appreciation, that you most likely haven't heard before.

Part 4:
How are we applying appreciation as a part of Great.com

--
Today's episode is an entrepreneurship episode, where Erik Bergman and Emil explore topics about how to become a better business person.

We are often sharing real life examples that have happened previously in our careers. What we have learned, who we have learned from and how we have applied that into our real lives. Everything in a mix with personal thoughts and reflections.

Powerful leadership skills and specifically appreciation leadership skill.

In the first part of the episode we are exploring what appreciation is. If it is a skill that you can learn and who you would have learned it from if you are good at it already. If you are not good at appreciation, who's fault it that?

In the second part we dive into how appreciation and compliments work as a motivator for work. How do positive feedback and showing gratitude compare to giving financial bonuses? What is it that makes appreciation so powerful and what is it about money that makes it work or not?

The third part is about what happens if you don't show appreciation and how that impacts your team. We also look into what are some very efficient ways to show appreciation and how can you learn to do it very well?

Finally we round the episode off by talking about how we apply this knowledge in building Great.com. What are we doing to increase motivation and morale in the team by using appreciation.

--
Follow Erik and Emil on their social channels!
http://linktr.ee/smilingerik
http://linktr.ee/emil.e

Transcript

[00:00:04] If we're going to lead other people in a certain direction, we need to give them appreciation so that they keep doing what they're doing. And if I'm in my self, leadership wants to move in a certain direction. I need to give myself appreciation so I keep going in that direction. So I have as a habit me and my girlfriend. Before we go to bed, we ask ourselves three things you're grateful for and what are three things that you have done well to be.

[00:00:49] A good leader makes people excited to head in a certain direction, a great leader makes people better and more confident. One way of accomplishing this is to become really good at showing appreciation. And that's the topic of today's episode, appreciation as a leadership skill and how it costs nothing to give. But it can be remembered for a lifetime.

[00:01:20] So what are the parts of today's episode? Today we have four parts. The first one is about how appreciation is a skill that can be learned and improved. The second one is appreciation in business. Appreciation or bonuses, which is the most powerful. Part three are is some specific tips that you can use to make your appreciation more efficient that you probably haven't heard before. And part four is how we are implementing appreciation in our company. Great outcome. And I am here with, as always, my good friend Eric Bergman, who is the founder of Great Dot Com, our company that will give away one hundred percent of its profits to help the environment. He has previously founded the company Catina Media, where he made over 50 million dollars when the company went from zero to three hundred employees in just five years. And now he's teaching personal development and entrepreneurship to his over one hundred and fifty thousand followers on Instagram.

[00:02:27] Eric, how are you doing today and doing very, very well.

[00:02:31] I'm excited about this, and I'm here with Emily, who was the first one joining me in Great Dotcom about two years ago. He is the host of this podcast and also the host of our other charity podcast, where he interviews organizations and on the side of great, he runs a life coaching business. And he is my creative sparring partner, one of the smartest people I know. And I just love learning things together with him and create a lot of content together with him for this podcast, but also for Instagram and YouTube and everywhere else. And together we're doing this.

[00:03:10] Yes. And if you're new here, this is becoming great dotcom podcast, a podcast for anyone who wants to make the world or just their own lives, too, for that matter, better through personal development and entrepreneurship. And today we're talking about appreciation and how come so many people are not showing as much appreciation as they could do.

[00:03:44] So, Eric, you have been running a big company. How important would you say appreciation is as a leadership skill?

[00:03:51] Well, if I could go back in time and have a chat with Eric seven years ago and one of the most important thing I would tell him about leadership is, hey, Eric, you need to be better at showing appreciation. It's such a powerful tool and a way to just make people feel better, which also makes people perform better.

[00:04:18] And it's free, which is ironic because nothing in business is ever free. But this actually is so I believe that it's one of the most crucial things to learn as a leader and really master that. And I did not do that back then.

[00:04:36] Why do you think that is?

[00:04:37] Why do you think you didn't know how to show appreciation or know how important it was since no one talks about appreciation as a skill, at least not in school or very rarely in business books and stuff like that? I don't think I've ever even considered it to be a skill. I don't think I've ever really considered it to be something very important.

[00:05:01] I don't think I ever considered to be really. I mean, it's I haven't thought about actually back then. I never thought about it as a concept. What is appreciation? I mean, what would you say? What is the appreciation?

[00:05:15] The simplest thing I can think of is words or actions to show that you like something that someone did. Yeah. And what do you think that is powerful. So let's say a leader is someone that seeks a certain direction. They want to move in and is able to make people excited about that and follow towards that direction. If we show appreciation to someone for something they did that we like, I think they are much more likely to want to do the same action or thing again, and that is leadership.

[00:05:52] Yeah, basically one.

[00:05:55] When someone tells us positive things, we get a very positive experience. We feel good about ourselves. We feel good about the thing we're doing, we feel confident.

[00:06:04] And all of these can come from just words or more encouragement in general. Yeah. And do you think you can learn to actually be better at this?

[00:06:15] Oh, yeah, totally. By listening to this, I say, well, you have to think about it, I think. And because there are so many different ways of doing it. And once, at least from my experience when I have been trying different ways and I see what works best, and then I use those ways of giving appreciation, it becomes like a structure in my mind for how to do it. Yeah. So what do you think happens if someone is running a business or your own life too, for that matter, and they're not showing appreciation?

[00:06:49] It's hard for people around them to feel very safe or very good about themselves. It's hard to know. Am I doing a good job? No one tells me that I'm doing a good job. Maybe I'm not. Yeah, I mean, I think that and if you're not feeling safe, you're not feeling sure that you perform well. You might be worried that you would get fired. You might not be as excited about doing something there is.

[00:07:13] Appreciation shows that you are safe in a way, so I think that with appreciation, people are happier and they perform better and they feel safe. And without it, it's easy to get caught into like negative spirals of thinking and it's just bad for everything.

[00:07:34] Yeah. So I'm really curious to take a look at. How appreciation can be a tool in business and how it could maybe even be more powerful than bonuses. So you told my story before this podcast about something that happened to you when you received an email seven years ago. So let's dive into that situation.

[00:08:04] I have a print screen saved on my computer, and it's from an e-mail with just five words in it. And I remember when I received this, I got so happy all these. I took a print screen and I immediately sent it to my father. The email read. Very well done, guys.

[00:08:28] Great.

[00:08:31] And it was from our investors in our company and I was. Always trying to impress them. Always wanted to do a good job, and the company made a lot of money, but I still felt that I was struggling. And this was actually the first time that I received that kind of a verbal. Well, appreciation and to this day, I remember that feeling, I don't really remember why I got it. I don't really remember what actually happened before, how much money was involved in whatever happened. But I remember that feeling still to this day. And I think that's such a powerful thing about appreciation. What do you think that I remember this?

[00:09:21] I think we are a very social species. Our bodies are hundreds of thousands of years old in evolution and back in time, it was so crucial for us to be a part of the group and to be included. So I think they're very hard wired to do things that makes us appreciated and liked by the group. So I think in your case, you got this. Intense feeling of happiness, right, when you receive that confirmation, and I think back in Paleolithic times when we received compliments, we got a lot of good feeling, chemicals in our bodies, a serotonin, oxytocin. And that is still with us from today because you probably made a lot of money for your company and your mind. I understood that I am doing a good job here, but our monkey brains don't release the same chemicals for that. They understand these words of appreciation. You are doing a good thing. You are valuable for our tribe.

[00:10:23] Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense, because when someone is showing appreciation, you know, like that's a social thing, like that's a real thing that, well, monkeys could do is like they're showing appreciation to each other. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. But money lies just like you. I you know, money is something that monkeys wouldn't understand if you would give the monkeys are like, hey guys, I don't know, take my take my little fleece instead. Yeah. And I think that's the crucial part about is that my body understands appreciation, my brain understands money, but my body doesn't. And it's just that emotional experience of him showing me this validation made me feel so much and I felt so proud of that, that I wanted to show it to my father the first thing I did. And I don't even remember what I know, that this was about money. We had made money in a certain way. I don't even remember what it was. I don't even remember the money part. And I believe that this can be true for like financial bonuses as well, that if someone gets a bonus in financial terms, I think the money makes sense. It's a part of it. But I believe that it's more a way to measure how much appreciation we get. So we don't care that much about the money either. It's more about what does this symbolize. So if you get money and you can't tie it towards, why am I receiving this? What is it that I did? Good. I don't think that it would.

[00:11:56] Make any difference or at least very little difference in terms of motivation. Yeah, what do you think?

[00:12:01] I think both are needed. It's like saying which is best bonuses or appreciation is like should eat or should you drink? Both are needed. You need probably the mind needs to understand, OK, I'm taking this job because I have a good salary. This can give me these life conditions. So mind want the salary and the bonuses, but then for our heart to be on board as well, for us to feel good at work and want to be there, then appreciation becomes crucial. And I guess.

[00:12:33] Maybe you know this better, where do you think there is a bias in companies?

[00:12:37] I'm pretty sure that most companies work with financial bonuses because it's easy to kind of measure. It's easy to standardize. Appreciation is based on how good is the leader board bonuses. If someone you can say, OK, this is the way the company does it. So it's easier. Personally, from my experience, bonuses is not a good way to incentivize people because it works well.

[00:13:01] Like for the short term, like you want to incentivize something, but if you don't give someone, let's say, the maximum bonus you can give it get is five thousand dollars. And if you get anything below five thousand dollars, let's say you get four thousand dollars in bonus, people tend to think more about, oh, what did I do wrong? That didn't give me five thousand. Then they think about, oh, I got four since actually demotivating a lot of the time. If you're not getting the maximum bonuses or it becomes a comparison game like you got four thousand dollars, but why did Bob get five thousand dollars and you end up being unhappy and unmotivated because of a financial bonus. You work so the company ends up paying more money for making you less happy.

[00:13:47] Yeah, this will never happen with gratitude. It becomes like a zero sum game when you start comparing yourself. I'm a little bit better than him, but I'm a little bit worse than her. It doesn't matter how big the bonuses. Exactly.

[00:14:02] So if bonus if money comes, I believe that people see this part of the money, but mostly what the money represents, like the appreciation, because that's what the emotional part in us can understand. So if you get a bonus and you hear it, there's appreciation, you get an emotional experience, but if you get a bonus, someone else get a bigger bonus. Your emotional experience is not going to be pleasurable anymore. So you're not going to get it as a pleasurable experience while this doesn't really happen with appreciation because. Well, it could happen if I say you did a good job, she did a better job, you might end up in the same way. But it's not like by comparison saying it's not hard or measurements, so only one person in the company can get the biggest bonus.

[00:14:45] Yeah, but everyone in the company can get a sense of being fully appreciated by the leader.

[00:14:52] Exactly. So that's a huge difference. So I think if we sum this up, I believe that the reason why appreciation work so hard and work so well is that it's everybody can understand it and animal can understand it.

[00:15:06] Well, money is tricky and abstract. I understand. And appreciation isn't compared in the same way. You can't get half the appreciation in the same way as you can get half the bonus. So I truly believe that appreciation is a much, much stronger tool than money will ever be. And obviously you need money to a certain extent, but not to not with bonuses and not to highlight certain behavior.

[00:15:33] Right. So what I take with me is that appreciation is free. The positive effect it creates can last for ever. And it's a very strong tool for creating long term collaborations. So let's move on to part three, where we're going to explore how not giving appreciation can actually end collaborations. I was helping a friend out with a presentation that he was going to do in front of a couple of investors, and I was doing this because I wanted to be nice. I believed in his company. So we sat down. I spent many hours helping him. And in the end, we changed a lot of the structure in the presentation. And in my humble mind, it became a lot better. So afterwards I felt really proud and said, this is going to help him get this deal, I think. So after a session, he said, thank you, I will let him know how it goes. So I waited and I didn't hear anything from him. And then a couple of days after I knew that he had the presentation, then I reached out to him and I wanted to know, hey, so how did the presentation go? And he replied, Yeah, well, it went really well. And I was like. But I want to know more. There was something was missing, I yes, there was this absence of something that could have been such a positive experience for me. I didn't hear anything else. And then a couple of weeks later, he asked, hey, I got a presentation for another company. Can we have a look and upgrade what we already did? And now we was like, OK, so he's asking for more. When? I didn't even get anything back from what I already did, and I just felt super discouraged to be involved at all, I didn't feel any enjoyment to help him whatsoever.

[00:17:39] I can totally see that. So you're basically just helping out to be nice and to do some, do him a favor and all you got was a short thank you. And that simply wasn't really enough. Yeah, yeah. I can totally understand that because. So what do you think? How would how would this have played out if he was better at showing appreciation?

[00:18:04] Then I would feel better about myself, be more likely to help other people with other projects in the future, I would be much more likely to help him out with his project. I would want to be involved and shake up in the future. How is your company going? And that could have made our relationship much stronger.

[00:18:24] Yeah, I can totally see that, you know, because if you don't even get to hear, I mean, your reward in this sense, it's not money. It's basically you get to feel that you help someone else. You get to feel that you did something good. It's it's kind of like when you're doing charity, it's like you want to feel good about what you're doing. That's why you're doing charity. I want to feel valued by the tribe. Yeah, exactly. You want to try my monkey your mind once you monkey mind one side and. Since he didn't give you that, he didn't show you, like, I genuinely appreciate what you did, it felt like it didn't mean anything to him and then he doesn't really mean anything to you.

[00:19:01] Yeah, or maybe it meant something for him. But since he didn't say it, I can't help having my mind coming up with thoughts like, didn't he like it? Did I do something wrong? All of these thoughts, I can't help them. I can't stop them from coming. Yeah.

[00:19:21] Ok, so let's replay the scenario, what would have been a great way for him to to do this, you've had this session, you helped him out. It's now humbly five times better and.

[00:19:33] The second after he said thank you, what could he have done? How would this movie have played out for this to be a better.

[00:19:40] I would love to ask how what do you think? Because you heard the story now from the outside. OK, so.

[00:19:48] I think thank you when it's just to thank you means very little because then it feels like an autopilot thing. It feels like more something you do to be polite. Yes. It's kind of like asking someone, how are you when you meet someone and they ask, so good. Yeah, it's like it's a nothing interaction. So I think that thank you is better than no thank you, but it's not enough. So I think I think it's important to say something straight away. I think it's very important to follow up as soon as something have happened. So the best thing he could have done would probably then let's start right after the help. I the first thing you could identify was say thank you. I really appreciate you taking this time to help me out. I feel that it's five times better now and that's a lot thanks to you and giving you that validation of like you made this five times better for me. I greatly appreciate that. So putting more emphasis on it early on.

[00:20:44] And then right after this presentation, a perfect scenario would be you are the first one he's calling when he's out of this meeting room. It's like, hey, this presentation went so well, I could not have done this without you. I'm so grateful for what you did. And now they're going to invest money in this. And all of these good things are going to come from it.

[00:21:06] Right. So to summarize, what I hear you say is that.

[00:21:11] The more he can show how I did affected him emotionally and tell me.

[00:21:18] The better I stay when I'm here, yeah, I think that's a good scenario, I think an important thing is to do it straight away because then you can actually tie it towards what happens if you want to.

[00:21:30] Right after our session, when we first when we did their work together and then also after he right after important situations.

[00:21:40] So in this case, when you helped him and when he saw the results of the help straightaway come to you, because it would if he came to you six months from now, is like really good with a presentation. Your emotions are probably gone. And you already built up frustration and whatnot, and the sooner the better. And be very specific with what actually made something better, like, OK, these changes we did here made it so much better, this specific thing that we changed the order of things in the presentation or whatever. Yeah, that was your idea. Thank you. And so is giving me credit as well is giving you credit. I think that's very important. Yeah. Saying this is thanks to you. Yeah. Because you added this value thing. That's super crucial. And I think it's important to say how this will impact his life. Like thanks to these investors, I will be able to follow my dream or I will be able to work this way or I will be able to change this product. And also that's thanks to you so you can really connect the dots between these different things. I think that these are the most important things to get in. Like basic kind of things to keep in mind when you're showing appreciation is to do it straight away, be specific and give away credit to this person, say that this was very good and how it impacted your life, like what the effects are. And is there anything else you would add to that formula?

[00:23:11] Those four are a very good place to start. I would say so. So if I get it right, shall we try to be specific, show how it is, how much it meant to him and give away credit? Yeah, right. So if I were to add something upon that that makes this super duper powerful supercharged is something that at least I really feel a strong appreciation for, is if he is taking what I gave him and is actually done using it, is showing it by his action. So let's say, for example, that now he goes and find another investor that he didn't think of before. And then on the way there, he sends me a video saying, hey, thanks to I feel so confident about my company now with this new presentation that I made a couple of extra calls and now I'm having another presentation. And that's thanks to you. He has to showing me by actions that I actually like what I'm doing.

[00:24:08] Yeah. Like that. It's like when when I've recommended people to read a book and then they read that book and they tell me about how they read that book, then I feel very valued, like, oh, you really listen to my advice and you took action on it and read the book. It's kind of like that. I like that. So you said if he telling me that, oh, this is going to make me able to follow my dreams and then he doesn't do it, then that means nothing. But see if he's actually following his dreams, then that is high level appreciation. Yeah, it goes from your last words to seeing you actually get to see the results. So first he said this will be the results, then you get to see the results of him taking action on it right now.

[00:24:51] So, for example, the other day my girlfriend was was out running and did a heavy workout and wrote to me that, oh, I did have a workout. I'm totally exhausted right now. And then I got inspired to do a workout as well. But instead of writing to her, OK, you made me excited to go out and run. Now, I went out and I ran super fast. I was totally exhausted and I sent her a video in the middle of the forest running like a mad person, because showing that I'm doing that she inspired me is more powerful than the words.

[00:25:25] Yeah, I can see that. I like Super Ninia gratitude stuff. Right. I have a super gratitude way as well. Just do you have that happen. Fish is one of the most powerful ways that I now show gratitude is to make sure that other people seize it all. Yeah. So once again, this tribe thing, if you take someone aside in the tribe and say, hey, good job, then that means quite a lot. But if you like, gather the group of people say, hey, this is our hero, that would be a much stronger experience and it will also be more. More valid in that, if you're willing to say this in front of everyone, it's got to mean a lot. So whenever you have the opportunity of saying thank you in front of other people or highlighting things that someone good in front of other people, I think that's yeah. It's like pouring like supercharge on the appreciation. Right. And it's also really cool to give appreciation behind someone's back. You had a story when we talked a couple of days ago where someone showed appreciation behind your back quick to tell the story and say what happened. I know what I mean. Yeah, I think I know what I mean. I had a meeting with with an acquaintance and we spoke about my previous company. And I said that one of the best thing I did was to hire a guy and his name is Oscar called Stephens. If you ever listen to this Oscar. I'm still telling you how good you are. And I said that hiring him into hiring Oscar was like the best thing that we have done because he you know, he's such a super guy and they have no connection to this first guy I spoke to about an Oscar.

[00:27:11] He didn't know it was. And like a couple of weeks later, I got a print screen of an email actually from Oscar on Facebook where he had been talking to one of the employees of my friends, one of the guys working for my friend. And this this guy had told Oscar like, yeah. So our CEO spoke to Eric and he said, like, hiring you was the best thing his company ever did. And Oscar was so happy about this that he probably sent me a transcript of that. Email is like this is like the opposite of gossiping. I just say beautiful things behind someone's back. And best case scenario, they get to hear it. Right. So someone listening to this podcast now that knows Oscar say I heard good things about you in the podcast. Yeah, please do that. If you know Oscar, I tell him that he's also shade behind people's backs. Yeah. Loving it. Had to have something else before we move on. Probably I do, but I'm going to save some super ninja skills for for another episode. We have a couple of more specific things and we do plan a follow up episode on this in the future. Let's say instead, let's let's jump on to the magic question and magic wand and magic question, a question that we're asking in our team very frequently and that have made a dramatic increase in morale and productivity with our team. I would say by just asking that question.

[00:28:48] What have you been proud of this week? I was very triggered by a close friend of mine yesterday, and I think I spent five hours yesterday in and frustrating, annoying emotions and after about five hours, I realized that. OK, I want to take a whole other approach towards him and the reason we have been it hasn't we've been not been communicating well, it's probably because I haven't done as much as I could. So I'm proud that I took myself to time to really reflect yesterday. That makes me feel like a good friend and. I'm proud when I see what kind of person I would become over time by taking the time to reflect life. What are you proud of? This which.

[00:29:38] I'm currently very proud of the systems that we have been building together when it comes to creating this podcast and showcasing the topics for this podcast and also the systems that I built together with my amazing assistant, Korem, about how to create better content for her for Instagram and how to do that and the processes around that, that kind of evolved into being able to to scale things up and do lots and lots of things.

[00:30:08] What are you proud of? What is happening when?

[00:30:12] You ask that question. I love this question, and this was something that came up with in the meeting that I had, like let's talk about what we're proud of. And the beautiful thing about that question is actually asking yourself to be. Giving yourself appreciation, because when you answer, when I ask the question, what am I proud of? I'm looking for things I appreciate about myself and I'm asking myself, what am I appreciating and being able to say it out loud.

[00:30:43] It's kind of an yeah, it's a cue how to give yourself appreciation, which is something that's quite hard to do think. I mean, do you often give yourself appreciation?

[00:30:54] I actually do, but it took me some practice to get there because I think there is almost like a stigma in society that you shouldn't talk yourself up. And that's like bragging. You should it's like bragging. And at the same time, other people, if we're going to lead other people in a certain direction, we need to give them appreciation so that they keep doing what they're doing. And if I'm in my self, leadership wants to move in a certain direction. I need to give myself appreciation so I keep going in that direction. So I have as a habit me and my girlfriend. Before we go to bed, most nights we ask ourselves, what are three things you're grateful for and what are three things that you have done well today, which is pretty much the same, the same question. And that is for the reason that I want to be better at self leadership. I want to show myself that by going in these directions, I will get my own appreciation, encouragement, support.

[00:31:53] And you don't need outside validation. Like if you would have asked yourself, what am I proud of about this presentation you mentioned before, maybe you would still feel a lot better about that presentation, even though you didn't get the outside validation.

[00:32:08] Yeah, for sure. So I like that that extra outside validation becomes something that feels really good and gives power, but it's almost like pouring water on a cup that is already full.

[00:32:20] You know, you don't need it. It feels good, but it's not as important.

[00:32:22] Yeah. And in my experience, when I don't do this practice, my cup feels less full. And then I'm subconsciously, I think, trying to do things to please other people who can see that.

[00:32:35] Yes, there's a tie this back into two great and how we're using this question, this is a question that we frequently ask in our weekly meetings, like what have you been proud of the last week? And people get a chance to look for what they've accomplished and also highlight that today to the entire team. So we get we get double validation and appreciation in the sense that we both get to see what did I appreciate? And we get to say it in front of other people, which was one of the superchargers to appreciation. So this kind of lets us direct appreciation to ourselves. And this is one of the things we're doing on a regular basis. And we also have a specific channel for this, right?

[00:33:15] Right. Are Kudo's Channel. So whenever someone has done something well or the team has succeeded, that's something we post that in the Slack channel just for the purpose of giving public praise.

[00:33:31] It's so important and so small you can just type any little thing into.

[00:33:36] That's just this conversation was a good example of that because I was the first one to ask the question in the team called What are you proud of?

[00:33:44] And now you said Emma came up with a question. And if you wouldn't have said that, I would have been like, but I came up with that here. Why don't I give credit? There's no point in trying to come up with good ideas and great, because I won't get recognized for it anyway. I'm going to I'm going to trash talk. You love trash talk you behind your back in another podcast in the future. But I hope you listening can see how important it is for my morale, because if that doesn't happen, then I have to be on my guard like, OK, I came up with this idea, how can I make sure I get credit? All kinds of manipulative games gets created when this is not done. And I need to trust that you as a leader will pick up on this.

[00:34:26] Yeah, and that's hard is that these are two of the main things that we're doing and great. That's come about showing appreciation and making that a part of our regular day to day business and leadership. So if someone wants to support this podcast, what can they do?

[00:34:44] Oh, if you want to show appreciation to us, what would be super duper ninia cool is if you go into your podcast app or YouTube and press the subscribe button.

[00:34:56] And a reason for that is that we really, really want to get into the top lists in a different podcast apps. And we have a very strong opportunity to do this because if you're in the top list and it has to do with how many of your listeners are subscribers, it's not about the total amount of listeners. So even though we are a small podcast, we can still get into the top lists with your help, which means that many more people can get to hear these messages.

[00:35:24] Yeah, so please do that. And in today's episode, we spoke about that a good leader is someone to get people to head in a certain direction, a great leader, someone to make people better and more confident. And one very important way of doing that is by becoming good and showing appreciation and learning appreciation as a skill.

[00:35:48] It costs nothing and it can be remembered for a lifetime. Have a lovely day. See you next week.